Severely Depressed from Die-Off/Herx? Probiotics? Virus? Lyme? Co Infection? What's Happening?

[outdamnspot]

I think what happens is, as soon as you stop the supplements killing off the bad bacteria, they immediately start growing back again, until we have enough good bacteria in our gut to keep them in check. Once there's enough good bacteria in the gut, they will keep the bad bacteria from overgrowing again, and causing symptoms. Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense. I know I have asked you this before, but does that mean you are taking probiotics together with the herbs?

Also, out of interest, have you noticed an issue with lactobacillus strains? I started on Reuteri and Culturelle two days ago, but have been waking up feeling awful.

 

[ljimbo423]

does that mean you are taking probiotics together with the herbs?

Yes, I take a high potency probiotic with 60 billion cfu's per capsule every day. Most of the leading functional medicine doctors that treat cfs, agree that this is very helpful.

Also, out of interest, have you noticed an issue with lactobacillus strains? I started on Reuteri and Culturelle two days ago, but have been waking up feeling awful.

I haven't noticed any difference in my reaction to lactobacillus or bifidus strains. They both give me some degree of die-off and possibly symptoms from improving immune system function too. I have read a few studies that say probiotics improve immune function. Here is one-

The beneficial effects of probiotics have been demonstrated in many diseases. One of the major mechanisms of probiotic action is through the regulation of host immune response.

Some of the dreaded feelings you are feeling are probably from immune system improvements.

 

[outdamnspot]

I haven't noticed any difference in my reaction to lactobacillus or bifidus strains. They both give me some degree of die-off and possibly symptoms from improving immune system function too. I have read a few studies that say probiotics improve immune function. Here is one-

Some of the dreaded feelings you are feeling are probably from immune system improvements.

It's difficult to tell with probiotics. I have read some people say they can generally make things worse until the SIBO is more under control. So far, no probiotic that's made me feel worse has shown a turnaround/improvement (even after a couple of weeks), which makes me a little reluctant to stay on them too long. The lacto strains seem to be making me more spacey and depressed, so I may move on for now.

My Neem arrived today, so I was going to start that tonight -- but I actually read a warning about using it if you have low blood sugar issues, which I definitely do (hence, why I switched to Keto). Have you experienced hypoglycemia on any of the herbs you use -- either as part of die-off, or a side-effect?

I think I will cautiously try it; if I take it before bed, maybe I can sleep through the worst of it. The only other herb I have on-hand is Oil of Oregano, so that's an option too.

 

[ljimbo423]

Have you experienced hypoglycemia on any of the herbs you use -- either as part of die-off, or a side-effect?

Not that I am aware of. It's hard to say though, because I get low blood sugar very easily. So that, coupled with the ongoing fatigue to varying degrees and other cfs symptoms, makes it hard to tease out, what's, what.

 

[outdamnspot]

Not that I am aware of. It's hard to say though, because I get low blood sugar very easily. So that, coupled with the ongoing fatigue to varying degrees and other cfs symptoms, makes it hard to tease out, what's, what.

Hi ljim,

My body is really not liking Neem. It leaves me extremely crashed the next day and worsens my 'adrenal fatigue' -- to the point where I have felt closing to fainting due to excess hunger/weakness. I did want to stay on a different herb before rotating back to Haritaki. Do you believe Oil of Oregano is safe to try? It's the only other herb I have on-hand. I have read some people warning against it due to the fact that it kills all flora -- good and bad.

 

[ljimbo423]

Do you believe Oil of Oregano is safe to try? It's the only other herb I have on-hand. I have read some people warning against it due to the fact that it kills all flora -- good and bad.

I have heard people say that oil of oregano can can kill off good bacteria and cause problems, but I never heard of that actually happening. In fact, it seems like it does just the opposite. It kills off any overgrowth and supports more of a balance in the gut.

This study just came out a few days ago- carvacrol is the most active component of oil of oregano.

Regarding the effect on biofilm, it was observed that thymol, carvacrol and eugenol showed antibiofilm activity against all potential pathogenic bacteria tested whilst specifically enhancing probiotic aggregation.

These results indicate that an appropriate combination of GRAS plant metabolites, which have traditionally been used as dietary constituents due to their health-promoting characteristics, can also be extremely useful in the regulation of bacterial proliferation in the intestinal microbiota. Hence, it is suggested to apply these natural GRAS molecules as dietary supplements in the food industry in order to promote probiotic viability and to prevent or reduce colonisation or proliferation of intestinal pathogens.

I have also read countless reviews at Amazon and Iherb of people that bought oil of oregano, have been taking high doses for years and feel great! Most say they wouldn't be without it because they feel so good taking it daily.

I have been taking oil of oregano for months now and continue to improve.

 

[outdamnspot]

I have heard people say that oil of oregano can can kill off good bacteria and cause problems, but I never heard of that actually happening. In fact, it seems like it does just the opposite. It kills off any overgrowth and supports more of a balance in the gut.

This study just came out a few days ago- carvacrol is the most active component of oil of oregano.

I have also read countless reviews at Amazon and Iherb of people that bought oil of oregano, have been taking high doses for years and feel great! Most say they wouldn't be without it because they feel so good taking it daily.

I have been taking oil of oregano for months now and continue to improve.

Hi jim,

I've been taking the OOO for the past two days (~5 drops in milk before bed). I believe that I'm experiencing a herx, because I've noticed vivid dreams, increased depression, a sore throat and fatigue; it's more tolerable than the Neem, however, and doesn't feel like it's messing with my blood sugar.

I realize I can scale back the dose, but do you also find it's necessary to simply feel temporarily worse while killing stuff? My 'adrenals' are struggling more and my threshold for activity etc is worse. This makes me want to stop because interventions I've tried to improve my adrenals generally haven't worked. But I wonder if I simply stick to it for a week or two, I may emerge feeling better. I know Ken has described people who were incapacitated by herxes, but felt better once they rode through them.

 

[ljimbo423]

But I wonder if I simply stick to it for a week or two, I may emerge feeling better.

I understand your struggle all too well. I found that taking a course of Rifaximin dramatically reduced the die off I got from herbs like oil of oregano and berberine. If you can get a doctor to prescribe that for you, I think it would help and probably give you a smooth transition into using herbs to fully heal.

If you can't do that, the die off for me usually only last a few days. So if the die off is too much for too long, I would say cut back, if not, it should pass fairly quickly, with a few days or so.

I am doing better than I have in 10 years, maybe longer and continue to improve! I don't say this to make you feel bad, in fact just the opposite, I say this to let you know there is hope and it can be done!

EDIT: You have the keto diet going for you and that's a BIG, CRUCIAL, piece of the puzzle!

 

[outdamnspot]

If you can't do that, the die off for me usually only last a few days. So if the die off is too much for too long, I would say cut back, if not, it should pass fairly quickly, with a few days or so.

Thanks. The first 2 days were really rough. I had a good day yesterday, but today is bad again. Did you find the die-off from OOO any worse than other agents?

 

[ljimbo423]

Did you find the die-off from OOO any worse than other agents?

I think Berberine and oil of oregano are very strong antibacterials, but the amount of die off is dose dependent. So the smaller the dose, the less the die off should be.

I think our bodies are already overwhelmed with toxins from the LPS stimulating the immune system. So when we kill off more bacteria in our gut, the level of toxins go up even further, because our immune system becomes more stimulated, therefore symptoms increase.

Things like olive leaf extract, Oregon grape root and cinnamon are not as strong, so the advantage they could give you, is the ability to start at a little higher dose than the oil of oregano.

 

[outdamnspot]

I think Berberine and oil of oregano are very strong antibacterials, but the amount of die off is dose dependent. So the smaller the dose, the less the die off should be.

I think our bodies are already overwhelmed with toxins from the LPS stimulating the immune system. So when we kill off more bacteria in our gut, the level of toxins go up even further, because our immune system becomes more stimulated, therefore symptoms increase.

Things like olive leaf extract, Oregon grape root and cinnamon are not as strong, so the advantage they could give you, is the ability to start at a little higher dose than the oil of oregano.

Thanks ljimbo. Out of interest, are apathy, brain fog and feeling cold symptoms you experience with die-off? These are hitting me the hardest at the moment.

 

[ljimbo423]

Out of interest, are apathy, brain fog and feeling cold symptoms you experience with die-off? These are hitting me the hardest at the moment.

Yes, I get brain fog, feel cold sometimes and get chills too, even when it's very warm. The apathy I get from die off, has been and still is a big concern, because it messes up my ability to think clearly and to be able to think with reason.

When I get significant die off, I start to question weather treating sibo/dysbiosis is the right thing to do, even though I am certain it is! When the apathy from the die off hits hard enough, much of my ability to remember what I know from experience, goes out the window and I start to think I'm on the wrong tract!

I get the feeling reading your posts that might be happening to you too? When you get die off and apathy do you start to question weather you are doing the right thing treating sibo and leaky gut?

 

[outdamnspot]

Yes, I get brain fog, feel cold sometimes and get chills too, even when it's very warm. The apathy I get from die off, has been and still is a big concern, because it messes up my ability to think clearly and to be able to think with reason.

When I get significant die off, I start to question weather treating sibo/dysbiosis is the right thing to do, even though I am certain it is! When the apathy from the die off hits hard enough, much of my ability to remember what I know from experience, goes out the window and I start to think I'm on the wrong tract!

I get the feeling reading your posts that might be happening to you too? When you get die off and apathy do you start to question weather you are doing the right thing treating sibo and leaky gut?

Yep, you guessed correctly! I think I am used to a certain baseline functioning (however minimal) and when I start to get die-off (?), even that goes out the window, and I am left feeling so apathetic/foggy that all I want to do is lie around in bed. Then I start to wonder if I should just go back to the way I was (semi-)functioning pre-treatment.

 

[ljimbo423]

Apathy from die off is something to be very aware of. It can sabotage even the best laid plans for improving your health!

I have experienced this countless times in the last few years and I dare to say, it's probably been my biggest roadblock to getting well. The other side of that is to not push ourselves too hard too fast, to minimize the die off and apathy, in particular.

 

[outdamnspot]

Apathy from die off is something to be very aware of. It can sabotage even the best laid plans for improving your health!

I have experienced this countless times in the last few years and I dare to say, it's probably been my biggest roadblock to getting well. The other side of that is to not push ourselves too hard too fast, to minimize the die off and apathy, in particular.

Have you noticed if the apathy is something that improves with time the longer you use a particular herb?

 

[ljimbo423]

Have you noticed if the apathy is something that improves with time the longer you use a particular herb?

The good news is YES, the die-off and apathy becomes much less and when I do get it, it lasts much less time. I use to suffer for 1-2 days taking 30mg of berberine, now I am going up 100mg every 4 days with almost no die off. I just tried to go up 100mg in 3 days and this morning the apathy and die off came back.

It's only been a few hours and the die off is already less that it was, so it passes much, much faster now. So what did I learn? I learned that 100mg of berberine every 3 days is to often and gives me too much die off. So I will go back to taking 100mg every 4 days again.

I am now taking 400mg berberine a day and 4 - 150mg oil of oregano gelcaps (a 10:1 extract) equal to 6 grams of oregano. 400mg of berberine is equal to about 8 grams of the herb it's extracted from. So I'm taking the equivalent of about 14 grams of herbs a day!! Something that seemed impossible for a long time.

 

[outdamnspot]

The good news is YES, the die-off and apathy becomes much less and when I do get it, it lasts much less time. I use to suffer for 1-2 days taking 30mg of berberine, now I am going up 100mg every 4 days with almost no die off. I just tried to go up 100mg in 3 days and this morning the apathy and die off came back.

It's only been a few hours and the die off is already less that it was, so it passes much, much faster now. So what did I learn? I learned that 100mg of berberine every 3 days is to often and gives me too much die off. So I will go back to taking 100mg every 4 days again.

I am now taking 400mg berberine a day and 4 - 150mg oil of oregano gelcaps (a 10:1 extract) equal to 6 grams of oregano. 400mg of berberine is equal to about 8 grams of the herb it's extracted from. So I'm taking the equivalent of about 14 grams of herbs a day!! Something that seemed impossible for a long time.

Wow, that's great to hear! So you stay on the herbs consistently? I was trying to follow Ken's plan i.e. stay on a herb for 1-2 weeks, then cycle onto the next herb etc.

Do you ever find the depression/die-off hitting you as soon as you take the herb? I administer the OOO as drops and am hit by a wave of depression almost as soon as I put the drops on my tongue ..

 

[ljimbo423]

So you stay on the herbs consistently?

Yes. I first started taking OoO. one day, berberine the next and cinnamon the next, alternating, but the die off was too much. Now I take the berberine and OoO. every day.

If I remember right, Ken said to use die off as a sign that the herbs were working and his theory was if you don't alternate them, the bacteria become resistant. Considering the die off I had this morning from upping the dose of berberine too soon, the bugs aren't resistant yet.

By the way, the die off passed after a few hours or so, now I feel good again and my energy is good too.

I think what happens is, the longer we take the herbs, the lower the bacterial count in our gut, so the better we are able to handle bigger doses, the bigger doses in turn, kill off even more bacteria. Maybe Ken is mistaking less die off, from actually lowering the bacterial load, for the bacteria becoming resistant.

Do you ever find the depression/die-off hitting you as soon as you take the herb? I administer the OOO as drops and am hit by a wave of depression almost as soon as I put the drops on my tongue ..

I don't remember it hitting me that fast, but if I am already having a lot of die off, it will hit me fast, sometimes in just an hour or less.

 

[outdamnspot]

@ljimbo423 do you notice any change in the nature of stools with die-off? for example, mine lately seem to have an ammonia/'chemical' smell to them (sorry if that's TMI!)

 

[ebethc]

@ljimbo423

How do you take Thyme? I cook w it a lot; all the cheap supplements on amazon also have fenugreek, and I don't want to take more that I need

I've noticed berberine helps my brain fog... any thoughts on why this is? It's subtle, but I'll take what I can get

I had a rough week, and it may have been too much oregano oil... powerful stuff! I felt like someone kicked me in the forehead... my sinuses did NOT like the OoO, which I take to be a sign that the bad bugs are revolting.. Hopefully, I'm right. I wish there were some way to calm down the reaction... I guess massively scaling back is the only way to go, but I'm impatient

One more thing I want to try: the L Sakei / Kimchi protocol from lactobacto blog... have you tried this?