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Severely Depressed from Die-Off/Herx? Probiotics? Virus? Lyme? Co Infection? What's Happening?

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Lotus97, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    About a month ago I started to get really depressed. I've been having a lot of health problems for the past 5 months, but my mood had remained relatively good until last month. I've been on a lot of antidepressants over the past 15 years so I know when they're working and when they're not, but I still considered that possibility initially. My AD was working so well in fact that sometimes I actually felt stoned (and no I didn't smoke anything). Maybe there was some synergy with my supplements, but it was mostly the anti depressant. Aside from increasing serotonin, Prozac actually has dopaminergic properties.

    I've been considering other options and the one that seems most likely is this. I started to get depressed right around the same time I began taking probiotics. I had been taking probiotics before, but I stopped for the month. I've also been taking prebiotics which some people say can make probiotics significantly more effective. I've heard that probiotics can cause a herx/die-off/Herxheimer effect in some people. And then some people experience depression from herx caused by antibiotics, antifungals, probiotics, antivirals, etc. I'm 98% sure I have Lyme disease so I was if when I started taking the probiotics if they triggered some kind of reaction in my body which is now fighting something. I'm also taking a few supplements for the immune system, but I'm not sure how they work. I've noticed when I've taken Pau D'Arco tea I've sometimes been depressed or moody, but it passed relatively quickly that I can't be sure if it was caused by that or not. I'd like to know
    1. Is any of this possible?
    2. Why is it happening?
    3. What can I do about it?
     
  2. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    I have experienced depression from probiotics also. I hypothesized that it was the amines produced by the new bacteria that was causing it. That's just a guess though. I found Dr Ohhira brand easier to tolerate, and alternate it 3 days on/off with a beta glucan capsule.
     
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  3. Creekee

    Creekee Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    So sorry you're struggling with this. I remember years ago when a doctor rxd Prozac for me re CFS I felt completely removed from life. Didn't give a #@*t about anything. It was actually (vaguely!) disturbing and I chose to stop. Don't think it did much of anything for the CFS symptoms, either.

    More recently, I've been struggling with killer gastric problems (not my usual problem). I tried everything. Got some relief from supplements recommended by my naturopath ("GI Beneifts" and Xymogen "Probiomax Plus DF") but I clearly wasn't getting well. A wide assortment of traditional probiotics did not help at all. I finally let a friend talk me into starting a regimen of homemade yogurt. You can make it in the crockpot; it's no work at all. I leave all the whey in (it's really healing for your gut) and eat it first thing in the morning and last thing at night. If my guts start feeling rocky at other times, I add a serving. Within three weeks, my guts were much improved. Within six, I felt pretty much healed. Right now, about nine weeks in, I'm feeling better than I've felt in years.

    I'm not sure IF this is what fixed my guts. Or if it did, exactly WHAT did the trick. The whey? The fresh, active cultures? Are they just way more effective than anything packaged?? But I can't dismiss the timing. I'd been desperately sick for 14 months, including a trip to the emergency room and a 50-lb weight loss. I wasn't taking anything else when I finally started healing.

    Do I sound deranged??

    I would love to see someone else give this a try. It's super simple. And chemical-free. Really wondering if it can help some of us heal our gut and find better health overall.

    Okay, off my soapbox. Happy to send you the (bizarrely!) simple instructions if you want to give it a try. Either way, sending lots of healing vibrations (and a hug!) your way.

    Creekee
     
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  4. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    immune system supplements can cause depression (cytokine flare). are you working with a doctor on those?

    One thing I have sometimes tried is stopping supplements and probiotics and adding them back one at a time, or stopping them one at a time, or changing them one at a time, to try to identify what is causing whatever problem I'm having.
     
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  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Thanks for the responses. I was taking a few brands, but I think the brand that most caused it was Sedona Labs powder because I think that was the only one I was taking the first few days. If the probiotics are causing herx (and I don't want to say anything for sure since it's so tricky determining cause and effect with these type of things) doesn't that mean that they are working well since they're fighting the bad guys? And is that a good thing? Interesting that one person mentioned Dr. Ohhira's because I am taking those too. And another probiotic supplement I'm taking is very similar to homemade yogurt mentioned. It's freeze dried fermented cabbage. I'm taking different brands because I wanted to populate my gut with as many different strains of probiotics as possible. I did try stopping the probiotics for at least a couple days if not longer, but once they're in my gut I assume they're going to stay there even if I stop the probiotics. As I mentioned, I was also taking prebiotics which might have magnified the effect. There's a thread about prebiotics if anyone is interested:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-wonders-of-prebiotics.6740/
     
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    It looks like methylation can also trigger an inflammatory immune response. I posted about it in this thread:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...depletion-rich-vanks-posts.21563/#post-332839

    Also, I was looking into the cytokine flare mentioned in this thread. It seems like exercise can trigger it too. This could explain why I got a lot worse after working out at the gym over the summer. I'm at the point now where spending too much time at the computer is an excess of activities. If it wasn't for my wiredness masking my fatigue I'd be spending most of the day in bed.
     
  7. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what the specific cause is for you (obviously :)). I've found that there are a ton of things in what we do that have the potential to affect mood, so it can be really hard to pin down (anything involving the gut, or methylation, or blood sugar, or blood flow, or heart function, or, or, or...). I do definitely think that it's possible it's related to the probiotics, though. I know that for me personally, I have to stay away from certain gut products, fibres, etc. because my mood goes south dramatically. It's a sudden reaction and goes back to normal again once my gut levels back out.

    If you give it a little while and it doesn't calm back down again, my advice would be to take them away again and see if that helps. I have run into several places where I've wondered if something that felt really crappy was really a good thing, but in my experience it pretty much always turns out that things that feel really bad are usually bad :) (or at least are an unnecessary strain on my body. Sometimes a change of dose, slower progression, etc. can help and works out just as well in the end). At the very least, I might try a different kind of probiotic, or a much slower transition/dose.

    Good luck! Unforeseen side effects suck.
     
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  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    The ones I've been taking consistently and started around the same time as the probiotics were lactoferrin, immunoglobulins, and larch gum/arabinogalactan. Someone said they were having viral symptoms from a product with lactoferrin and immunoglobulins. I haven't been tested for co infections so I don't know if I have anything. Is it possible to get bitten by a tick and acquire a co infection, but not Lyme? I also found this about larch gum/arabinogalactan. It increases cytokines and monocytes. My monocytes last year were high (9.4%)
    Larch arabinogalactan from Larix occidentalis was shown to increase circulating peripheral blood monocytes. Tumor cells pretreated with larch arabinogalactan enhanced NK cell cytotoxicity and phagocytic capacities of macrophages and lymphocytes, and increased release of various cytokines, such as IFN-[gamma], TNF-[alpha], IL-1[beta], and IL-6. Larch arabinogalactans are a class of long, densely branched high-molecular weight polysaccharides (10,000-120,000 daltons).

    There's also this about Lactoferrin, but I have no idea what that means.
    Lactoferrin down-regulates the LPS-induced cytokine production in monocytic cells via NF-kappa B.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12657243

    I honestly have no idea what any of this means. Would these supplements be causing me problems? Does this mean certain supplements for the immune system are bad for me? I had never even considered that. And if it is the immune supplements then maybe the probiotics either aren't causing a problem, or they are at least less of a problem. I was planning on taking AHCC, Epicor, Reishi, Maitake, and Shitake also. Does anyone know if they could cause problems? I haven't opened them so I guess I could return them.
     
  9. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay

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    Hi Lotus97, I find that I get a Herx from lactoferrin and this will sometimes include some depression.
     
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  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Do you think that's because it's a prebiotic? I know it also does something with iron so candida can't feed on it. I've thought about stopping all probiotics and prebiotics as some people suggested, but I wonder if I do that will I then have to go through all of this again if I start taking them. I don't know what's going on in your case if it's because Lactoferrin is a prebiotic which is helping your probiotics or something else, but if probiotics are causing a herx that means they're working by fighting the bad guys. And probiotics perform all sorts of functions in the body like increasing serotonin and manufacturing b vitamins. I don't know the specifics, but I've heard of someone having problems with methylation because the probiotics were creating reduced forms of folate in that person which combined with methylation supplements caused too strong effect.
     
  11. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay

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    Unfortunately I'm a little too brain-fogged to understand everything I've read about lactoferrin! There's a lot of speculation about it but not many hard answers.

    I use lactoferrin because it has anti-bacterial properties. Apparently it's a natural antibiotic, it also breaks down biofilms, and it bonds with iron (which denies bacteria the chance to feed on the iron).

    I'm on the Marshall Protocol and I use it in between doses of antibiotics. I find that the Herx reaction I get from lactoferrin is pretty much the same as I get from the antibiotics.
     
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  12. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    That article on Lactoferrin is saying something about how the found in that study that it reduced certain cytokines in human cancer cells in a test tube. I am not sure whether those particular cytokines are inflammatory or anti-inflammatory (I can't keep them straight), and too tired to try to look it up.

    Any supplement, just like any drug, can give you side effects. Could also help. I can't tell you which. I'm not familiar with many of the ones you mention, but possibly some other people here may be.

    I would recommend not starting gobs of new things all at once, because then it's hard to sort out what is causing what. You want to know 1) what helps so you know what to spend your money on and 2) if you have an undesirable effect, what is causing that so you can eliminate or change the supplement or take steps to mitigate the effect.
     
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  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So it's a prebiotic and an antibiotic? That makes my brain hurt. It looks like it's also antimicrobial. As for the biofilm, I've read that there can be toxic metals stored in the biofilm which are released when the biofilm is destroyed. So pathogenic bacteria also feed on iron? I had only read about candida doing that, but that's good to know.
     
  14. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    Just to say, I have Lyme disease and I'm pretty sure some of the antibiotics I'm on are what's responsible for a huge flare in depression. It is really horrible to bare (I mean it is torture), but, yes at the moment at least it does seem to me to be related to a herx...
     
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  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Do you continue to take them when you feel negative symptoms or do you lower the dose or stop for a bit?
     
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    That last study I posted said lactoferrin actually reduces cytokines so that means it's a good thing to take (?) I really have trouble with the technical language of these studies. However, this other study seems to suggest that probiotics might not be a good idea, but as I said I'm having a really difficult time understanding what it means so I could be wrong.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2219384/
    Differential immunomodulatory properties of Bifidobacterium logum strains: relevance to probiotic selection and clinical applications
    Modulation of host immunity is one of the proposed benefits of the consumption of probiotics. Nonetheless, comparative studies on the immunological properties that support the selection of strains of the same species for specific health benefits are limited. In this study, the ability of different strains ofBifidobacterium longum to induce cytokine production by peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) has been evaluated. Live cells of all B. longum strains greatly stimulated regulatory cytokine interleukin (IL)-10 and proinflammatory cytokine tumour necrosis factor (TNF)-α production. Strains of the same species also induced specific cytokine patterns, suggesting that they could drive immune responses in different directions. The probiotic strain B. longum W11 stimulated strongly the production of T helper 1 (Th1) cytokines while B. longum NCIMB 8809 and BIF53 induced low levels of Th1 cytokines and high levels of IL-10. The effects of cell-surface components obtained by sonication of B. longum strains overall confirm the effects detected by stimulation of PBMCs with live cells, indicating that these components are important determinants of the immunomodulatory activity of B. longum. Genomic DNA of some strains stimulated the production of the Th1 and pro-inflammatory cytokines, interferon (IFN)-γ and TNF-α, but not that of IL-10. None of the cell-free culture supernatants of the studied strains was able to induce TNF-α production, suggesting that the proinflammatory component of these strains is associated mainly with structural cell molecules. The results suggest that despite sharing certain features, some strains can perform a better functional role than others and their careful selection for therapeutic use is desirable.
     
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Based on what people said about immune system supplements causing problems I decided that I won't take any of those for awhile, but I am going to resume probiotics. People say that gut health is one of the most important things and I assume probiotics are one of the best ways to improve gut health although I admit I haven't done much research on the subject. I'm also going to continue taking some B12, but methylation might be a bad idea since it can sometimes increase inflammation. I found this post by Rich about the subject, I don't understand how I support the immune system without reactivating it since the immune system supplements seem to reactivate it. I'm afraid anything I do is going to make things worse, but I'm also afraid of doing nothing.
     
  18. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Lotus, I just want to warn you of something that Velha told me...she said she tried probiotics and at first they made her better but then they hindered her recovery. She recovered from ME/CFS using Freddd's protocol plus 5g or so l-carnitine fumarate (Drs Best) and some olive leaf extract and garlic for the gut.

    Based on what she found I haven't taken an interest in daily probiotics. Most cultures have fermented foods in their diets as occasional foods and that's the way I do it. So once a week or every other week I eat a yogurt which is no hardship. I use 1g olive leaf extract/day to kill gut pathogens which works fine. The reason I use such a high dose is because it seems to be an ace inhibitor and I am ace +/+. Velha uses only 300mg plus about similar in garlic. I think she may also take oil of oregano though (can't recall) and that is expensive. I save oil of oregano for when I have any kind of infection/inflammation. It will even kill gram negative bacteria. But the big guns are expensive.

    Everyone is different and maybe probiotics will do the job for you...just pay attention to whether it ramps you up and then in any way keeps you from a total recovery.

    Trif
     
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Did I read that right, that the person you mention, Velha, took 5 grams of L-carnitine fumarate? I have never gone above around 1.5 grams per day when I take L-carnitine. Sounds like a rocket fuel approach to treating ME/CFS!
     
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I thought about taking garlic, oregano oil, and olive leaf. I actually have a bottle of garlic oil and oregano oil, but I'm not sure I want to use them now. Since they have antibacterial properties I assume they will kill off my probiotics. I'm also concerned about the herx they will cause. I have thought about taking garlic and oregano for my anxiety due to their sedative properties. When I was doing candida treatment I started taking raw garlic and could barely get out of bed. I'm not sure how much of that was from the herx and how much was from the sedative properties. Right now I'm just letting the dust settle.
     

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