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Seeking (pro?) help possible lifechanging detox I induced, i'm desparate

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by forbius, Dec 18, 2011.

  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, aquarius.

    Thanks for this information. I have not been following Amy's site very closely lately, either. I note that she has included all three of these tests in her new comprehensive test package. I presume that Boyd Haley means that most of the metals come out in the stools, since there is certainly some measured in the urine. I'll have to look into this more closely. Thanks again.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  2. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    There are a number of different ways to go about this:

    1. Complete a Doctors' Data Hair Elements Test, and submit it to someone who can interpret this.
    2. Provided you have no amalgam fillings in your mouth and recent exposures (flu shot, for example), purchase some DMSA & ALA, 25 mg, and take every three hours for 3 days and see if you notice any response to this, particularly when you start and end the "round" of chelation. Your symptomatic response will serve to confirm or deny the presence of toxicity. You may need to move to a higher dosage to be sure about this, but it should tell you what you need to know.

    Neither of these are perfect, but a challenge test is not without its demerits.

    You would likely have some cognitive dysfunction if you are mercury toxic, but there are exceptions. Any cognitive dysfunction is not likely permanent; it depends largely on what you do about it. Also, understand that the cognitive issues are in all likelihood not solely related to the neurotoxic effects of Hg. The secondary infections, inflammation and other indirect effects of Hg significantly contribute to the cognitive issues, at least that has been my experience.

    If you get any noticeable response to large dosages of NAC or spirulina, this might be a clue that you have some Hg on board.
  3. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich and Vegas, great information.

    Makes me wonder if I have had some mercury issues because I have had very positive results to a vitamin A, C, E and selenium mix before, as well as success with spirulina in moderate doses, 4-8grams a day; the NAC I have only ever used 500gm a day. But never had any amalgams and over 10 years since a flu shot, so seems more likely just a positive response to these things for other reasons, candida/leaky gut for instance which was a serious problem for a while. May still have to consider testing, no point just wondering.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rob,

    Just as a quicky, and I will be around now, get rid of the NAC, glutamin and Whey. Thes boost glutathione which cause what is common called "detox" which is actually a severe induced methylfolate deficiency at fist and then a progressively worse adb12/mb12/Metafolin deficiency. After stopping these items take 8 mg 3 times a day of methyfolate until "detox" symptoms go away and then come down to a more usual Metafolin dose perhaps as much as 8mg/day but maybe no more than 800mcg. Also get rid of folic acid and folinic acid that can both cause paradoxical folate deficiency with the same symptoms as the "detox". Treeatment is the same. It takes several days for the folicv acid/folinic acid to flush from the body and several weeks for the gltutathione to do so.
  5. forbius

    forbius

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    You diagnosed that without hesitation. How is it that the metafolin deficiency procured measurable cognitive improvements, social improvements that were observable to others, and health improvements? To clarify: NAC, glutamine and whey achieved none of this by themselves. Noone has explained to me why it required inordinate (multi-litre) doses of water, sodium bicarbonate, potassium chloride and sodium chloride and glucose, and that without these none of the reaction happens. Peoples detox reactions are usually negative; they feel worse when taking, for instance, mercury chelators or 'mobilisers', or glutathione precursors.

    My own hypothesis is that there was some kind of "syphon" going on that literally started eliminating it through the kidneys in vast quantities. I was waking up to pee during the night, so my vasopressin must have taken a nosedive or so... I'm still wondering about the theory of serum NAC and sodium bicarbonate reacting to cause a slow steady rise in sodium levels. I suppose noone is equipped to answer the exact nature of what was going on, as i'm the first person to perform the experiment and combine these factors. Or prove me wrong, please.

    I am already supplementing Methylb12 and methylfolate in large doses. All I know is that the triggers people are advising me against brought on a reaction that felt wholely and profoundly good in a very, very rapid way (the onset would occur in minutes). And people are telling me what was happening is that I'm transporting loads of mercury into my brain and I need to stop, or i'm vastly deploring reserves of a certain vitamin... if that's true then my body's inner sense of what's good or bad for it is totally schizophrenic. I'm not saying they're wrong, but the idea of levels of a neurotoxin rising in my brain doesn't correlate to the across-the-board improvements in every hobbled area of my life, from fatigue to social issues to handwriting to burning sensations after peeing, all 'magically' correcting themselves. For crying out loud, I felt normal. Normal. That's something I've never had before, ever. Nor have I ever enjoyed social interaction for its own sake before--ever. I feel angry at what I've missed out on. Whatever I did to myself gave me a taste of this for the first time in my life. If this is what mercury poisoning or methylfolate deficiency is, I want to cause it even more. :innocent1:

    Obviously it isn't, but if there's some distinction to be drawn between the positive effects and the longer-term negative effects, then please draw it. Saying 'your detox symptoms are a metafolin deficiency' is saying that all those aformentioned good things, auto-righting of all my health issues, are all due to metafolin deficiency. That sounds inane, and I hope wasn't what was meant. Or if it is, please explain. People seem to be overlooking the fact that I tried something a bit more radical than just taking glutathione precursors; I was doing that for months before the 'detox symptoms' occured.

    One thing I will do is get rid of my 1 amalgam. I've read enough on it to know that it can't be any good. Fortunately it's at the rear of my mouth and I can just have the tooth pulled, to minimize the risk.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Forbius,

    When people complain of certain things they almost always have certain offending items that they are using. It's not a sure thing, it's a percentage things. Many times remvoing those items and taking the suitable counteracting doses of Metafolin and mb12/adb12 will correct the problems starting in hours. There are no gurantees on the individual situation. When people are taking NAC, glutathione (precursors), un-denatured whey and complain of a certain set of detox symptoms , the high probability answer is induced folate deficiency. However, if elliminating the offending items and taking the reversal agents then there are other much lower probabilty answers. On the other hand if they are not taking those items and are taking any of a number of b12, folate and several other items and are having successful methylation and healing startup and have a different set of "detox" symptoms it is likely to be low potassium. As the symptom sets are quite different except for some overlap, the two would not normally be confused. This has come about by watching lots of people's responses and the responses to making the changes. It's funny that those certain things show up over and over even if they are not being taken intentionally and then the symptoms are corrected by the Metafolin and b12s, it happens over and over. Yes, there are exceptions. The only way a person will ever know is to test the hypothesis. In this real life game of YOU BET YOUR LIFE I try to place my bet on the things that work best and most often. The people that have immediate strong response to mb12/adb12/metafolin are the ones that are very likely to heal substantially in a year. Some prescription drugs, perhaps 10 or so, block folate and cause induced deficiencies. Certain supplements also do that.

    I'm going to describe what a cycle of induced folate deficiency of the paradoxical variety is like for me. The form induced by NAC was more severe faster but otherwise identical. As it results in return of symptoms if a peron has made progress with mb12/adb12/metafolin or no change at all if the symptoms are already bad, how it manifests is variable. The subset of folate deficiency synptoms and their onset goes like this for me. Day 2 - angular cheilitis starts up getting worse fast. Joint and muscle pain starts worsening. I start retaining water. Day 4 - IBS get started (as this is now only from paradoxical folate deficiency for me I elliminate most veggies for a few days and cut back after that), 2 days after cutback the cheiltis starts to fade. 3 days after cutback the water starts to pour off of me again, as much as 10 pounds in 2 days. With it goes potassium and I have to increase potassium or I get wild muscle spasms in my legs, heart arrythmias and mood changes. 5 days after cutback the IBS is suddenly decreasing and gone with 10 days, about the same as the cheilitis.
  7. forbius

    forbius

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    Sorry, this reads like you haven't even read what I wrote.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Forbius,

    I would say the same thing, that you don't really "get" what I am saying, maybe becasue you din't think it is "detox". I don't think it is detox either, in any real sense, just an overloaded application of the word.

    Now if that isn't where the non-understanding is coming in, then I really am not getting what you are saying. I don't find it clear. I was trying to explain that the word "detox" isn't about anything actually detoxing here, but rather are other things that are frequently happening and called that.

    So Now that you see how I am misunderstanding what you are trying to get across, how about trying to explain what you are trying to say again as I don't appear to understand it.
  9. forbius

    forbius

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    You said my reactions were down to folate depletion, and I explained how that doesn't fit. Even if there is folate depletion occuring (and you suggest that it unerringly occurs when taking NAC), such depletion doesn't occount for the life-altering and far-reaching benefits to my life that I received for a time, only you seemed to suggest that it does. Your writing reads like you didn't read what I wrote because it's like you didn't even notice my recounting the profundity of the reactions, or the fact that they never occured solely in the presence of the things you say cause folate depletion, but with other key ingredients that are never counted among the "certain offending items" you speak of. Can you tell me if you read the entire of my OP? It would explain a bit if you had merely skimmed it.

    I notice b12 and folate is the thing you write about most. I have other people telling me i'm a classic case for ld mercury poisoning. Would you disagree with that?
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Forbius,

    Here is where we gget into the tremendous overlap of symptoms subject to many interpretations.

    First I want to say that the only way to KNOW whether anybody is having any paradoxical folate deficiency issues is to trial with metafolin or folic acid and see if the two produce different results. Second, that on the glutahtione, there are ill effects noticed in people who have first had a year of great healing with adb12/mb12/Methylfolate with maybe 100+ symptoms dimishing a lot or ven going away and then, when the glutathione or NAc or whatever is started to see if those symptoms come back.

    I have no knowledge whether "unerringly occurs when taking NAC" or not. Right now I'm trying to find the conditions as to whether it can be perceived or not and that takes a certain kind of comparison.

    If a person doesn't meet that precondition the negative effects may not be pecveivable leaving just what appear to be positive effects. I know that the first few days on the glutathione certain thaings did feel better at the same time other tjhings were changing that turbed out to be a problem after long enough duration to see direction. So, glutathione decreased some pain for me. That turned out to be truninbg the nerves back odff and then damaging them to the point of numbness, but the PAIN DID DECREASE. The mb12, adb12 and Methylfolate turn on the nerves making all the pains and discomforts more obvious and felt. Glutathione turns off this awareness increasing comfort. In the early part of active b12 usage there is a brightening of things with more energy. There is an increasing ATP. Some people find these things produce anxiety and feel intolerable. Glutathione can turn these off and stops further increments of adb12 into the mitochondria and so stops ATP increase and these things can feel better while functioning worse.

    I distinguish between feeling better, or maybe" less worse" from increasing nervous transmission and ATP and having the nerves and mitochondria functioning better.

    Then lets consider mercury. Others have noted in various studies and things on mercury that 80% of the mercury toxic symptoms are exactly the same as mb12 deficiency symptoms. Now 50% of the population has at least some of those symptoms from lack of mb12 and respond to mb12 and when mild often see prompt start of removal of those symptoms. SOme tiny fraction of th population has enough mercury in their body to have toxic effects. Some are hypersensitive to mercury an other substances. Low methylfolate and low mb12 cause hypersensitivity such as MCS. Some claim that mercury can methylate from mb12. In doing so it destroys the functioning of the mb12 and could be a cause of said mb12 deficiency symptoms from mercury. This destroying of mnb12 is something that can happen, it would appear, at mercury levels far below any toxic level. If 10mcg of mb12 are destroyed per day they person will go into deficiency if they are not supplementing. If mecury can indeed disable mb12 it becomes mobilized and subject to removal by the liver which occurs at 1% of the mobilized mercury per day, having an established by research hserum half life of 71 days.

    Japan had huge mercury problems in the 1950s. They also researched mb12. They are the only country that uses mb12 as the official b12. They also use 550pg/ml as the low cobalamin alert level, insrtead of 160pg/ml in the USA and UK. ANd they are also a country with an Alzheimer's rate of 20% of that in the USA and UK. They started studying the neurological effects of mb12 and deficiency while the USA and UK researchers were chasing their tails "proving" that cyanocbl and hydroxcbl reduces MCV. This proof is statistical because cyanocbl and hycbl work so poorly. Being used to working with drugs that barely affect a "significant" number of people, it didn't bother them that cycbl and hycbl worked so poorly.

    One of the possible genetic things that links a whole lot of diseases together is that CFS, FMS, ALS, MS, ALZHEIMER'S, AUTISM, PARKINSON'S, SUPRA NUCLEAR PALSY all have low cerebral spinal fluid cobalamin regardless of body level. Various of these diseases have also been tested for elevated HCY and elevated MMA in the CSF. Various of these have one or the other or both elevated MMA/HCY specifying which type of cobalamin is low. I don't believe that low CSF cobalamin and lots of CNS symptoms are unrelated. Folate is critical in this too in multiple ways. Paradoxical folate deficiency appears to be relatively mild and intermittant compared to the hard folate deficiencies some drugs and supplements can cause. It may be more common from medical drugs then anything else.

    So, all this comes into play. All I was suggesting to you is that if you were to do an A-B set of trials, repeated a few times you would know for sure what was going on.

    In any case I am working on a questionaire that is going to attempt to get at some of these things. I'll be posting a development version shortly, which will need input from people with and without the symptoms involved adding things that need to be considered and elliminating items that don't indicate anything.

    entire of my OP

    I don't know whar "OP" means. The only thing of yours I read is what I read is on this page and it doesn't really connect with me as exactly what you mean. That appears to go both directions with you and me. We use language differently enough from each other that we are each unclear to the other. So some effort needs to be made for us to understand each other. I'm sure we can hash out meaning if we work at it.
  11. forbius

    forbius

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    Not got time for a full reply right now but OP = original post.

    I'm not sure why we wouldn't have a common vocabulary, we're both speaking english...

    EDIT: The thread "Exercise as detox" is interesting to me. I don'tk now why I failed to mention it, but one thing I was doing leading up to the first major detox (or 'detox') episode was exercising on a stepping machine every single day. As soon as I had my first episode I stopped it and haven't done it since, since I felt my body needed to undergo something and I didn't want to direct any energy away from the process. Maybe there's a causal correlation between stopping exercise and the eventual drop-off of symptoms... or not...
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Forbius,

    I re-read your post again.

    Please define "detox" and the symptoms it casues. That word has so many different meanings that it is basically useless without defining it. Otherwise it just confuses everything. When used in conjuntion with NAC or glutathione, most of the time it means induced folate deficiency. If folic acid or folinic acid are used it may mean paradoxical folate deficiency. When usewd wirth mb12, adb12, metafolin or some other combos it usually means "induced potassium deficiency". So start by defining this term and giving the symptoms you are attributing to it.
  13. forbius

    forbius

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    I don't know how I missed this. I did get the impression you saw the phrase "detox symptoms" and assumed it in the way you use the phrase. I've looked at some of your older posts and I see where you use the exact same term, but you use it to describe something wholely negative, both in the way its subjectively experienced and the actual physical cause you explain it by (to do with glutathione binding to b12 and causing a b12 deficiency if I remember right...).

    For me, when I use the phrase 'detox symptoms' it's the opposite. I don't know how to explain without repeating myself, though. But I wonder if I could have absolutely no problem with glutathione precursors and that my physiology is actually dissimilar to yours, which would make it harder for you to help me. I get periodic chills and shudders in my neck and back, and my gut feeling is that all my problems pivot around this. The (good) detox symptoms I get all seem to involve these shudders ramping up. Fluid balance seems a very important factor. At the last week of May 2011, I managed to luckily hit on some right combination of factors that brought on a torrential reaction in my body that felt subjectively, wholely positive and was in no way subtle like my earlier experiences with NAC, but was an experience like I can only imagine hard drugs like ecstasy would recreate (not that i've tried them). I felt super super powerful and/or normal, felt a huge amount of blood go to my head, and experienced very measurable and unsubtle cognitive improvements. I felt like laughing in the face all of the difficulties i've faced in life up to that point.

    I had been taking glutathione precursors for over 6 months prior to that and I wasn't experiencing any kind of 'come down' from them. I identify electrolytes and bicarbonate as being essential to the reaction I induced, plus plenty of fluid, but possibly also many other things I was taking around that time were also significant. After the reactions I shed a lot of the things I was taking, and perhaps that's why the reactions became less and less intense.

    I don't know what to say. I do know my hope in getting any kind of answers from this thread hasn't been fulfilled. I felt like a lot of people read my OP poorly and didn't address my points well... that's not a knock against them, I just didn't foresee at the time that I was speaking to people who are mostly a lot tireder than I have been. I got a few PMs where people would say "I've had your experience..." and proceed to describe something that sounds nothing like it. Are you someone who has beaten your CFS?

    If the answer lies in everything I was taking, I could post excerpts of my logs (I log everything I take and sometimes describe how i feel) the 14 days leading up to and after the intense reaction episodes...

    EDIT:

    This may answer your request to 'describe detox', quoting my original post. This is when detox would last a whole day though. As time has gone on, the frequency, duration and intensity of these episodes have grown less. Now I still get the 'detox episodes' but they're about once every few weeks, last about 30 minutes and are a tiny fraction of the intensity I describe below:

    ...

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