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Seeking input in my 23andme results

Discussion in 'Genetic Testing and SNPs' started by trollo, Jun 5, 2013.

  1. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Based on the actual research, VDR Bsm is reported backwards, hence you have the "good" version. There's no research anywhere showing that BHMT-02 or BHMT-04 are a problem.

    BHMT-08 does affect gene functioning, but to a minor extent - maybe a couple percentage points.

    MAO also has some impact, but studies have phrased it as the G allele resulting in the gene being more active in certain mental illness - I haven't seen anything indicating that the slower version (I presume you have T/TT) is a problem. T/TT is also an extremely common genotype - around 50% of the population has it. So based on the studies I have access to, T/TT is probably the preferable/safer version.

    MTHFR A1298C is the only one which is relatively serious. Functionality of the gene might be down to 75% or less. So supplementing active folate is the only real suggestion I've got for you based on those :p
    Neither version of COMT V158M or H62H can really be considered bad or good. Like with MAO there's faster or slower degradation of catecholamines. Being heterozygous is just a matter of being in the middle of the scale, instead of leaning to one side - there doesn't seem to be any risk factor associated with it. At most I'd say that your catocholamines don't break down quickly, so doing anything to increase or enhance them might be unpleasant.

    While MTRR A66G can have some effect, the heterozygous version doesn't show a statistically significant effect.

    SHMT1 C1420T probably doesn't have a direct impact itself, but can increase the effect of MTHFR C677T. You don't have that MTHFR, so nothing to worry about there.

    SUMMARY:
    Your active folate levels might be low, so it's possible that supplementing an active form of it will be helpful. Some people need to avoid artificial folic acid to benefit from folate, but no idea if you're one of them.

    Be careful if doing anything that might increase levels of dopamine, norepinephrine (noradrenaline), epinephrine (adrenaline), and/or serotonin. Some people also think MAO/COMT problems are a good reason to avoid supplementing high doses of methyl sources (mega doses of B12 or methylfolate), but no idea how accurate that is.
  2. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    No, but it's annoying and dodgy. It makes it very hard to find out why a certain supplement might cause both positive and negative effects, for example. And it's a lot more helpful for patients to know the ingredients, so that they can get them from cheaper sources if they want them. While it's not illegal, the Yasko approach is that of a corporation, not a medical professional.

    It's not a matter of belief for many of us. It's a matter of carefully studying the biology and the existing research to see if the statements about these SNPs are accurate. In some cases, they are somewhat accurate (though usually badly exaggerated), but in many cases the statements made are scientifically unsupported or even contradicted.
    Myself and others have posted legitimate concerns and questions which no one is able to answer, such as why some risk factors are posted backwards, and why heterozygous results with no associated risk factor are flagged. What concerns me is that the Yasko protocol, which has a decent foundation and potential for useful applications, is turning into some sort of club where no disagreement is tolerated, even when something is clearly incorrect.
    This isn't a pro-Yasko forum. It's an ME/CFS forum, where any topic can be civilly discussed from either side of the aisle. And again, it's not a matter of faith, but a matter of science. Hence it is extremely appropriate for forum members to express their disagreement with the scientific foundation of the Yasko protocol.
    trollo and Ema like this.
  3. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    Well i totally disagree with your idea that if you do not trust some therapy then it will not work... more the opposite, it's when something you don t trust it works that you can really take it seriously. Even less scientific things like Yoga works the same if you believe or not in them.
    About Acat multi it seems obvious to me that the price comparison tab is misleading because the dose of every single supplement they count is even 4 or 5 times more than the doses in the multi. The fact that many ingredients are not quantified is also negative, the customer should be supposed to keep his faith on Yasko that put into each pill the right amount for everything but you are not supposed to know how much it is.... yet i don't know if i will be able to find an alternative, because Yasko never give doses in the book and the Acat/bhmt ingredients doses are my only reference to establish what doses i should assume; the doses are very low and maybe the single supps are too high and can't be splitted...
    I read somewhere that just recently a law in USA obligate every supplement producer to put the 'supplements fact' tab in the supplement, that should mean that every purchaser have the right to know every single ingredient of it and the exact amount...
    From your words it seems like you consider Yasko protocol a kind of faith in wich you can believe or not... i find this attitude dangerous. I read the Rick Van protocol, but i don t see why, now that i already spent my money for a genetic test, i should ignore my SNPs and follow a general protocol where they say that it can give side effects due to the fact that it s not 'personalised'... and i don't think the Rick van protocol would be very different from mine, except for that Acat/bhmt supplement, all the other supps are basically mainly 5-mthf (or folinic), various b12 kinds, tmg and phosphatidylcoline complex and a few other things.
  4. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    To Valentijn:

    Actually, is your opinion that i should assume only methylfolate and b12??? And what about PC complex and TMG??? If A1298c really impact negatively the BH4 level shouldn't this mean that my NT levels could be low??? Did you find confirmation about this connection between A1298C and BH4 deficiency? I found they speak about it on Wikypedia (on 'bh4 deficiency' page) but without any sources. I d like to test for ammonia in blood to see if i really have high ammonia... basing on Yasko ammonia detoxing should be the main way to increase bh4 levels. Also phenilalanine would be interesting....
    I also find out i m extremely sensitive to Vit C, more than 250mg gives me insomnia. but i never responded to SSRI drugs, or SNRI. I assumed for monthes 2000 mcg of methylb12 by Puritan Pride sublingually without any effect.

    Valentijn it seems to me you should be very skeptical as well about the 2 simplyfied protocol, isn't it??
  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Sorry, I haven't looked into the BH4 stuff.
    I don't believe B12 or methylation protocols have the capacity to cure ME/CFS. But I do think the simplified protocol can be helpful, especially as B12 and folate issues seem to be pretty common among ME/CFS patients. I've also found hydroxy-B12 to be helpful with some of my symptoms, and folic acid has helped me a lot in the past (it stops the migraines that I get if I eat MSG).
  6. Bluebell

    Bluebell More % Neanderthal than Adreno but less hairy :-D

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    Yo, Neander-chick :cool:

    A few questions:

    Broadly, if you don't mind saying, what sorts of symptoms do you find hydroxocobalamin helps you with? Do you use the Perque B-Guard brand of that?

    Have you ever tried methylcobalamin, and, if so, what were its effects?

    When you say folic acid helped with migraines, were you using the artificial folic acid or methylfolate (or folinic acid)? Do you take any form of folate these days?

    Do you have a name and/or a web address for your SNP program? Do you have an expected date when it will be ready, or is that still some time off?
  7. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Whattup, Craigbell? :cool:
    Pain mostly, but just a certain type of it. Mostly the non-specific deep aches that don't seem to be a direct result of muscle use - vascular maybe? It also seems to have a mild impact on my OI.
    Pain gets worse, and I feel generally crappier. Maybe potassium issues, though I've never done more than 5mg methylB12 per day.
    Folic acid seemed to work just fine for me. It was very noticeable in one case where I'd had a "complicated hemiplegic migraine" for three weeks, and based on mildly elevated homocysteine levels, the neurologist had me try folic acid. Half an hour after taking a normal dose of the cheap stuff, the room started spinning wildly (I had to lay down), then there was a warm fuzzy feeling, and then the feeling was back to normal on my right side.
    No name yet, or certain address. No expected date, since Mr Valentijn is working full time and taking care of me part time. We've got a basic program in place that can check for certain SNPs from a list of known risk factors, etc, but it hasn't been adapted for web use yet (and I need to tweak design aspects of it as well).

    We also started working on a simplified rare allele program. So far we've gotten the allele frequency files downloaded (160 gigabytes, then expanding at a factor of 8 after being unzipped), and we figured out how to pull out the results we need, so Mr Valentijn needs to make a simple program to automate that. Then I probably need to filter out the excess information that still remains at that point, then he needs to write the actual program to find and list rare alleles.

    There's nothing super time-consuming to be done, so it's a matter of Mr Valentijn having the time and inclination to do the programming. Maybe a couple weeks, maybe a couple months :p
  8. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    I received the result of the test for NH4 in blood, and the level was LOW!!! In a normal range of 9 - 75 ug/dl i got 10!! Well on the base of Yasko and Heart fixer words i should have a "double wammy" on bh4 levels and high ammonia.... this is not the first test that contradict a supposed 'alternative' diagnosis. My cortisol saliva test said i should have adrenal exaustion but my Sodium and Potassium in blood are perfect!!!
    Valentijn likes this.
  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Shocking! ;)

    The only Yasko SNPs that are known to have a big effect are MTHFR C677T (always) and MTHFR A1298C (in certain conditions). The other SNPs which have an impact on their genes have a pretty modest effect - maybe in the neighborhood of 1 or 2% faster or slower. And of course, there's quite a few Yasko SNPs that do absolutely nothing.
  10. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    But it is possible to have low bh4 and no ammonia excess???I must ponit out that 'i m vegetarian
  11. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    well, nobody else suggest anything else???
  12. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    I wonder if it is possible incurring into detox symptoms also by assuming simple folic acid. Last sept i began to assume 2.5 mg of Folic acid, 200 mg of b6, 25mg of P5P, 50mg zinc, 2000 b12, 800 mg magnesium, plus fish oil and flax seed oil. I felt good for a week or two, then i began to feel like i had the flu. No doctor i ve been able to understand what was going on... the fever it lasted for 6 monthes and stopped a few weeks after i stopped folic acid. Every day i used to feel bad just one hour before i went to defecate, and i could actually predict that within an hour i would have to go to the toilet simply basing on this unease, and i used to feel lot better half an hour after defecating. it was like if the feces traveling in my gut made me feel bad... Actually basing on to my CDSA test i could have disbiosis and leaky gut, and i read that detox issues are due to the toxins being reabsorbed by the gut...
  13. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    I want to responde to Pathogen killer first, then to Valentijn. I admit i should have posted a more detailed version of my SNPs but i thought i was sufficient what i posted.

    To PathogenKiller first: i don t want to be ungrateful, but it s not very helpful to dispense a few pearls of wisdom on such complex issues and then disappear without any explanation, instead it can make a person more confused than before, or lead him to do risky or wrong things. Pathogen you said a few controversial things: You said i got SUOX. Where the hell do you see that??? If you deduce it from some indirect element , it would be kind to explain it. Also you said my VDR bsm augment my need for vit D. Yasko in is book speak only of VDR taq as harmful, she say nothing on bsm. She doesn t ever test for it.

    To Valentijn: you said i got the good VDR version. I actually didn t specified i got the T/T and it was marked as +/+ in genetic genie. Does 'backward' means that the -/- is actually the problematic version?? If so why Pathogen Killer said i need VitD (wich i indeed used to have very low)???
    About CBS c699t i got the GG version and i read into one of your post that this is the bad version and when it is marked as -/- it actually means troubles. Can you explain this to me please??

    Also to everybody who s able to responde to me: i tested for ammonium NH4 in blood, because in italy it s the usual test that is done for ammoniemia. I need to know if it has the same value as a blood 'ammonia' test, that means NH3. This is extremely important.
    I m going to re-edit my SNPs results. Thanks.
  14. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    1. COMT V158M​
      rs4680​
      AG​
      +/-​
      COMT H62H​
      rs4633​
      CT​
      +/-​
      COMT P199P​
      rs769224​
      GG​
      -/-​
      VDR Bsm​
      rs1544410​
      TT​
      +/+​
      VDR Taq​
      rs731236​
      GG​
      -/-​
      VDR Fok-I​
      not found​
      n/a​
      n/a​
      MAO A R297R​
      rs6323​
      T​
      +​
      ACAT1-02​
      rs3741049​
      AG​
      +/-​
      MTHFR C677T​
      rs1801133​
      GG​
      -/-​
      MTHFR 03 P39P​
      rs2066470​
      GG​
      -/-​
      MTHFR A1298C​
      rs1801131​
      GG​
      +/+​
      MTR A2756G​
      rs1805087​
      AA​
      -/-​
      MTRR A66G​
      rs1801394​
      AG​
      +/-​
      MTRR H595Y​
      rs10380​
      CC​
      -/-​
      MTRR K350A​
      rs162036​
      AA​
      -/-​
      MTRR R415T​
      rs2287780​
      CC​
      -/-​
      MTRR S257T​
      not found​
      n/a​
      n/a​
      MTRR A664A​
      rs1802059​
      AG​
      +/-​
      BHMT-01​
      not found​
      n/a​
      n/a​
      BHMT-02​
      rs567754​
      TT​
      +/+​
      BHMT-04​
      rs617219​
      CC​
      +/+​
      BHMT-08​
      rs651852​
      TT​
      +/+​
      AHCY-01​
      rs819147​
      TT​
      -/-​
      AHCY-02​
      rs819134​
      AA​
      -/-​
      AHCY-19​
      rs819171​
      TT​
      -/-​
      CBS C699T​
      rs234706​
      GG​
      -/-​
      CBS A360A​
      rs1801181​
      GG​
      -/-​
      CBS N212N​
      rs2298758​
      GG​
      -/-​
      SUOX S370S​
      not found​
      n/a​
      n/a​
      NOS3 D298E​
      not found​
      n/a​
      n/a​
      SHMT1 C1420T​
      rs1979277​
      AG​
      +/-​
  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    I've been doing a lot more reading, and it does look like Bsm T/T is the riskier (slower) version. Sorry about that, the research is somewhat confusing in the area. But the best way to deal with VDR down-regulation is with vitamin D supplementation (probably higher dose than the normal amounts). But VDR doesn't cause low vitamin D levels - that's a separate issue, even if they both have the same treatment.
    Yes, the GG version is the slower version of CBS C699T, which can result in elevated homocysteine. Yasko reports it the other way because she thinks that the faster version is insanely fast - but it isn't.

    She has simply misinterpreted a study which looked at the gene in isolation in a bioengineered yeast, which is a common way to see if the gene has an impact, and what the impact is. The effect was deliberately exaggerated in the yeast, yet she has extrapolated the mutant yeast result to humans. Research in humans indicates that the effect is quite mild, and that health risks come from the slow version, not the fast version.
  16. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    About VDR bsm: 'slower' does always mean that less methyl groups are used to do dopamine?? In fact i wonder: how much vit D weight on in the production of dopamine?? Is it a strong limiting factor or just a mild one? Again, is the -/- or the +/+ the trouble??

    About CBS: if it s slower does this mean it should lead to the opposite of the issues Yasko speak about?? I mean less products of the transulfuration pathway, like gluthatione??? Again, is the -/- or the +/+ that indicate a problem??
  17. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    +/+ doesn't indicate any problem, except for bioengineered mutant yeasts in a lab :D

    -/- might result in elevated homocysteine, lower cysteine, and lower glutathione, which isn't good.
  18. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    And about my question on VDR bsm?
  19. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Yes, slower should mean that there's less methyl groups being used up. But VDR Bsm has a pretty mild impact, at least when it remains synonymous with VDR Taq. I've put together a list of other 23andMe VDR genes which have research showing that they have an impact - it's at http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-vdr-variations.24480/

    I'm not sure how big the impact is on dopamine. That specific area of research seems like it's a pretty new one. Slower is always worse for known VDR mutations (+/+ is slightly slower for Bsm).
  20. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    For my VDR snp wich form of vitD supplementation would be better?? Calcitriol or D3??? Do you have idea of what would be an appropriate dose?? Having myself low vitD, should this mean i am at more risk having as well this VDR snp? My level of vitD in february were 11,6 ng/ml

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