Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Samento : beware ... quinolone side effects !

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease and Co-Infections' started by Hanna, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

    Messages:
    708
    Likes:
    819
    Jerusalem, Israel
    I have been using Samento -among other numerous treatments - for nearly 9 months (rotating them) and those last months, I am experiencing pain in legs (thigh + calves) that feels like tendinitis.

    I didn't know that using Samento may cause tendon damage, like quinolones do.

    And the reason is simple :

    "T.O.A.-free Cat’s Claw does have direct antibiotic properties and is also an anti-inflammatory and immuno-modulator. The antibiotic component of the herb is attributable to the considerable quantities of quinovic acid glycosides found in the herb, which are natural precursors to pharmaceutical antibiotics known as Quinolones." (from Rosner's book on Lyme http://www.lymebook.com/lyme-grapefruit-lauricidin-colloidal-silver-samento )

    Dr James Schaller :
    http://www.personalconsult.com/articles/fluoroquinolonedamage.html

    "Fluoroquinolone Damage

    One serious side effect that is not commonly discussed with patients is tendon and other tissue damage with these antibiotics. The quinolones include Levaquin and Cipro and even the popular "Lyme-killing" herb Samento or "cat's claw."

    I think I am going to stop it for a while and see what happens...
    Maybe some of you know one or two natural supplements I may add to bring some repair/relief to the tissues ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
    zzz, Gondwanaland, Wayne and 3 others like this.
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes:
    6,507
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
  3. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,701
    Likes:
    2,621
    Ashland, Oregon
    Hi @Hanna, thanks much for bringing this to our attention. My own philosophy on just about any kind of ache or pain or discomfort in the body... castor oil + heat. Castor oil alone will work--and even does an amazing job of making your skin look years younger. When I apply heat (usually on my liver when I do a castor oil pack), I usually just apply the oil, put on an old t-shirt (or 2), and put a hot water bottle on top. Besides reducing pain and discomfort, castor oil has a unique ability to harmonize distressed nerves in the area leading to sometimes amazing relaxation.
     
    Hanna likes this.
  4. South

    South Senior Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes:
    448
    Southeastern United States
    Possible involvement of nitric oxide in the quinolone-induced tendon lesions in rats:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9403275
    "The incidence of lesions was diminished markedly by co-administration of a potent NO synthase inhibitor"


    N.O. Synthase increases the levels of nitric oxide in the body.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_oxide_synthase

    So, rats given something to reduce their nitric oxide levels avoided some or all of the tendon damage that quinolones can cause.

    I think I got that right?

    If that's correct, there are a few natural things out there that reduce nitric oxide (although not as strongly as the studied chemical did). Anyone think I read this study right?
     
    Hanna likes this.
  5. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

    Messages:
    708
    Likes:
    819
    Jerusalem, Israel
    Thanks @ahmo for the links, I am going to try what I have at home first : oxygen peroxyde and bentonite foot bath, CE... Hope it will help. Once again, detox deto detox !
    I still have a stock of bentonite from Now brand - ends 12/2014 - I don't know if using it several months after its ending date is so important for foot bath. Maybe u have an idea ?
     
  6. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

    Messages:
    708
    Likes:
    819
    Jerusalem, Israel
    Thanks @Wayne I havn't used castor oil so far (perhaps because of its name :) ), and will have a look on this.
     
  7. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

    Messages:
    708
    Likes:
    819
    Jerusalem, Israel
    Maybe I should rise my curcumin daily dose as a first step. L-Arginine may be a no-no for me because of suspected chronic EBV.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16387899
     
  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes:
    6,507
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    I can't imagine that there's a use-by date for bentonite.

    Manganese is good for tendons, also collagen. My husband was in agony from what seemed to be a tear in his shoulder. (only got it scanned today, no clear dx yet.) He's had 2 acupuncture treatments, which seem to have been miraculous. The acupuncturist said at the outset that he could take care of such problems in about 4-6 sessions. I was very dubious, but it seems to have been true.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
    Hanna likes this.
  9. South

    South Senior Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes:
    448
    Southeastern United States
    @Hanna

    Hi Hanna, If that paper I posted is correct, you wouldn't want to take Arginine - taking it increases nitric oxide. The paper I mentioned seemed to say reducing nitric oxide will help. Arginine usually increases nitric oxide.
     
    Hanna likes this.
  10. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

    Messages:
    708
    Likes:
    819
    Jerusalem, Israel
    OK, I am afraid I have to read your info another day, with more concentration. thanks. If folks have a list of good supplements that reduce nitric oxide, it will make the thing easier. Martin Pall protocole?
     
  11. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes:
    1,178
    Ventura, CA

    There is a lot of controversy regarding quinoline based roots with samento/cats claw, at least around the lyme groups online. Here is Buhner's personal take on it.

    rom page 102 of Stephen Buhners Book - healing lyme

    Cats claw and the quinovic acid controversy

    "A rumor has spread that the quinovic acids in cats claw are, at root the same as quinolone antibiotics. The rumors say that this is why cats claw is effective against lyme spirochetes. Concern has been generated by this untrue assertion because quinolone antibiotics can cause severe inflammation in tendons. So, the word is that cats claw can cause tendonitis resulting in tissue distruction over time. This is all completely untrue. The quinovic acids in cats claw are structurally different than quinolone antibiotics. Molecularly, they are not the same at all and they do not do the same things."

    Personally I don't know if cats claw/samento could cause literal tendon and muscle damage in the way that quinoline antibiotics do. If anyone were ever to experience side effects on it they don't agree with it is best to get off of it. A lot of things can also be herxing because its a very powerful herb. All that aside a great substitute for cats claw is Ashwaganda,Rhodiala,Teasal/elethero root combined together.
     
    PatJ, Hanna and Wayne like this.
  12. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

    Messages:
    708
    Likes:
    819
    Jerusalem, Israel
    Thanks @Martial for the Buhner info. For the moment I have stopped Samento for more precaution. It is ennoying never to be sure about anything and navigating in the darkness. :( And I am sorry if I contributed to spread a rumor (according to what Buhner says).
     
  13. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes:
    1,178
    Ventura, CA
    Indeed, I was using Prima Una De Gato for a very short time before. Heard the controversy and decided to just take the Ashwaganda/Teasal/Rhodiala Combo instead. Even if it wasn't likely I didn't find it worth any risk when you can substitute something else. I hope you start feeling much better soon Hanna, the darkness and confusion can be overwhelming at times, it is always darkest before the dawn though. :)
     
    Hanna likes this.
  14. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

    Messages:
    708
    Likes:
    819
    Jerusalem, Israel
    Thanks again Martial, do you know if there is a substitute to Rhodiola (I began to react beadly to it after several months of regular use, and prefer to stay away from it for a while) in the combo Ashwaganda/Teasel/Rhodiola ?
     
  15. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes:
    1,178
    Ventura, CA
    You can try Eleuthero root. Japanese Knotweed is also not part of it but that is one of the best herbs you can take for lyme as well. Green Dragon Botanical sells a bottle of 100 for only 24 dollars.
     
    Hanna likes this.
  16. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,210
    Likes:
    1,357
    Europe + Asia
    @Hanna, are you still using samento?

    I've developed some joint pain in my fingers and worsening of cognitive function since upping the dose of samento, it kinda feels like when i was poisoned by ciprofloxacin (fluoroquinolone class Ab). I carry a genetic mutation that makes me more susceptible to fluoroquinolone toxicity so maybe it's best to substitute samento with something else.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2015
    Wayne likes this.
  17. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

    Messages:
    708
    Likes:
    819
    Jerusalem, Israel
    I am taking again Samento (resume treatment three days ago) but perhaps I am playing with fire @Thinktank . I really don't know. My body doesn't indicate a clear reaction wether beeing bad or good.
    There is a specific SNP that points to fluoroquinolone intolerance ?
    I didn't know. But maybe if you have this bad feeling (associated with cipro poisening) + the knowledge of your SNP's caution would be better.
    Living outside the US doesn't make it easy for getting the herbals Buhner advocates. That's a problem.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page