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SAMe-when to add it?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Laurel6123, May 3, 2014.

  1. Laurel6123

    Laurel6123

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    Talk to me about adding SAMe-I have tried every search method I can think of to find info, but it's just too short an acronym, and it seems very few that actually take it, spell it out.

    I have 200. Mg capsules. When should it be added? What to watch out for?

    (If it's relevant, currently taking 10 mgs each MTHF, Mb12, Adb12, K as needed, floradix in the AM and PM, as well as D and B2 approx 100 mgs/1x week. Mood is stable, energy is volatile with significant PEM after minor exertion)

    Any thoughts/suggestions/random musings would be greatly appreciated!
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    If you look under Resources and click on Google Site Search you can search for SAMe--this search place does take short acronyms. SAMe was originally part of Rich's methylation protocol until he found that a fair number didn't tolerate it. I was OK with it but started with just 50 mg and worked up to 200 mg.

    Good luck,
    Sushi
    Laurel6123 likes this.
  3. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Sushi, where is this Resources? This is a good tip, I've sometimes been unable to search due to too few letters. thx
  4. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Here it is--go to Forums, scroll down to Resources and click on Google Site Search.

    Sushi
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Oh, Excellent, under Search Forums!!:thumbsup::balloons: thx
  6. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Nearly there, look down the page to the box (lined in light gray) under Google site search. The Search Forums is using the forum software and you'll have trouble with short words. Google site search searches the forum with Google.

    Sushi
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Aha. Now I see. Took me many tries to find what you meant, I kept looking on that forum search page. Thanks Sushi.:hug:
  8. Laurel6123

    Laurel6123

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    Thank you Sushi-I kept trying to reply last night and the blasted ipad kept doing weird things.

    Thank you for the direction-found lots already!:)
  9. SDSue

    SDSue Florida

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    Sushi, I'm not finding the Google search option - probably because I can no longer scan info very well. Could you please be a bit more specific? Thanks so much.
  10. SDSue

    SDSue Florida

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    @Sushi - Never Mind lol. I, too, was looking on the forum search page. Thanks!
  11. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Laurel6123: my experience with SAM-e is not to add it until you're at least somewhat stabilized with the "Deadlock Quartet" and methylation in general. I tried it early on in my regimen and didn't really like it. Or maybe I added too much too fast...I worked up to 400mg/day within two weeks. Whatever, I tried it and then stopped taking it because I decided I didn't like it that much, or at least that I didn't need it. This happened several months ago.

    Recently, however, I had gotten stabilized with the Deadlock Quartet and was looking for a little more "oomph". So I tried some SAM-e about a week ago...200mg/day. It worked! I think it's also helped my sleep a bit, as I take it first thing in the morning and have been more ready to go to bed at night in the last week than I have since I had my outpatient surgery a month ago.

    I'm almost on the verge of declaring SAM-e my new best friend, but am still waiting another week or two to be sure. While I think it's given me a nice boost it may also be a factor in the minor folate deficiency symptoms I've been exhibiting. Not really sure, though, because the symptoms may also be coming from the high-ish dose of homemade liposomal vitamin C I've also added to my regimen. My tip-off folate deficiency symptom usually has to do with bowels, but vitamin C can cause wonky bowels, too.

    Main point is that based on my experience I wouldn't advise adding it until you're stabilized with other things first. If you add too many things at once and then develop problems, it can be very difficult to figure out what's causing the problem.
    place, Laurel6123 and Sushi like this.
  12. Laurel6123

    Laurel6123

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    Thanks @whodathunkit. I had thought I was pretty well stabilized, up until this morning. The depression is back with a vengeance. :meh:

    So I guess I'll be waiting to add anything more until I pin down what's causing the funk. I thought it was folate, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

    Back to the drawing board.:bang-head:

    I'd give my left arm to have a physical component instead of mental, and I'm left handed.
  13. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Laurel6123: getting better is never a straight upward trajectory. As far as I know from how long you've been posting here, you haven't *even* been doing this long enough to be stabilized. Forgive me if I'm making a wrong assumption about how long you've been trying these supplements. But if you want these supplements to work you have to have patience and a willingness to keep researching and tweaking. Also be willing to get worse or fall back to the same place a few times, before you see real progress.

    You can try SAM-e...that's your choice. It may work for you even at this stage of the game. Everyone is different. My advice would be to wait but if what you're doing isn't working for you then you can do whatever you want. Just be prepared for whatever happens (better or worse) as a result.
    ahmo likes this.
  14. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Hey Laurel- I took it years ago. And I swear to god, I felt great and I saw colors more vividly (sounds like acid, i know). However, if I did not take it the next day, I had severe depression for at least a week after. Since then I have been a bit more reverent towards SAM-e. I have been doing a small Methlaytion treatment for the last 2 years and did not use it. I am currently getting serious about my treatment, and have added 50mg 4-5 a week. It gives me a boost but does not bring me down the next day if I don't take it. I have just done 23 and me testing and am waiting results. I want to see if SAM-e would be beneficial for my methyl cycle through the results before I go any higher in SAM dose. Maybe you can start small and see how you do.
  15. Laurel6123

    Laurel6123

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    No worries. I've been on the methylation roller coaster for well over a year, lurking here in the background mainly because I a) didn't feel I had anything of value to add and b) was able to find answers to all my questions to-date via search. I do appreciate the info though-it will be useful down the road!

    I'm going to hold off adding anything. I've been stable before, with good energy and focus, but something has changed. Possibly P is growing faster and requiring a higher quantity of potassium, I don't know. It's pretty apparent this+ pregnancy is uncharted water. Yes, there is a risk to continuing this journey while expecting, but there is also a risk-greater, I believe-to stopping.

    @place -I hope it is and continues to be useful for you! I had a similar experience when I was first started on pregnenolone so I understand the description (and the looks you get when you try to explain).
    Interestingly, I nabbed and finished a liter of coconut water on the way home yesterday-I've never had potassium associate with depression before, but perhaps that's something new. Time will tell. Anything to be rid of the dreaded black dog.
  16. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Laurel6123: OMG, I did not realize you were pregnant!! Was I just not paying attention or what?

    First let me say "Congratulations!" :)

    But...

    Pregnancy changes things a bit, for sure. I'd be really REALLY careful with folate and everything else. B12 maybe wouldn't worry about so much but the other stuff, but frankly I'm a little scared now I know you're pregnant and if it was me I would not tweak my regimen much beyond what it was when I became pregnant. I might do minor tweaks like with potassium or whatever, but I would NOT add SAM-e under any circumstances, nor significant amounts of folate, etc.

    I also would not expect to be stable of mood or energy during pregnancy. Everything is wonky during that time and IMO it's probably unrealistic to expect that. Hormones can be all over the place even in healthiest of people.
  17. Laurel6123

    Laurel6123

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    @whodathunkit -Thanks! It was totally unexpected but not unwelcome. I blame Freddd and his DL quartet entirely for straightening things out. :p

    SAMe is actually recommended during pregnancy for certain conditions during the last trimester, which is where I am; it's also a go-to for my midwife for women who are struggling with mood towards the end as well.

    I've been working with an NP who is aware of what I'm taking and it's her opinion as well that it's better to stay the course with what I've been taking-especially as crucial as it is for cell division and proper gene methylation.

    I looked into it quite heavily last night and the concerns with excess lie exclusively with folic acid (no surprise there); no adverse effects have been reported with natural folate, and Deplin is considered the AD to take for pregnant women.

    This pregnancy is so much easier than my first, it's mind boggling. Zero morning sickness-none, zip, zilch; zero first trimester fatigue (well, aside from my standard issue energy volatility); and most pertinent for me, no edema. I retained 45 pounds of water with my first, starting from day one.

    Up until yesterday, I've been really good with mood and whatnot, as I said, I thought everything was pretty well stabilized even with pregnancy, but it appears that anxious depression is a new sign of low potassium that I haven't seen before.

    I need to figure out what triggered it before I add to the mix, though.

    have a sneaking suspicion that it might have been the iron supplement I just started, however...I'm off to confirm/disprove that hunch:thumbsup:




    I just had a possible lightbulb moment. Iron causes constipation. Hypokalemia causes constipation. What do you want to bet that iron depletes potassium, which is the actual cause of the constipation? (Except I'm not constipated,and was clearly low on K...hmm. Imperfect theory but plausible explanation, perhaps)
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
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  18. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Laurel6123: thanks for those clarifications. Greatly eases my mind. :) It sounds like you have it all covered. I just haven't researched these supplements during pregnancy and my first instinct is to always be cautious when it comes to that. It totally makes sense about excess folic acid v. excess folate. And FWIW, I wasn't advocating stopping what you were already doing...just maybe not increasing anything to be on the safe side.

    Very, very interesting about SAM-e and pregnancy! Really good to know it's that safe. In addition to having small difficulties with it in the beginning of my methylation regimen, I tried it years ago when it was new on the market and the supplement du jour, and it did not agree with me then at all. I realize now that it was because I didn't have any of the proper co-factors in sufficient amounts (B12, folate, etc.), but thought because of that it may be contraindicated in pregnancy. Hence my (erroneous) advice.

    IMHO iron might be the cause of your problem. It can do odd things to your system. Mind me asking what form are you taking?
    Laurel6123 likes this.
  19. Laurel6123

    Laurel6123

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    @whodothunkit I'm a research junky and a total nerd. I was just following my gut (it's served me quite well so far) but your concern prompted me to actually get off my backside and do the legwork. So thank you for not being afraid to question! :)

    Re the iron supp: It's just floradix-
    Supplement Facts
    Serving Size: 2 Teaspoons (10 mL)
    Servings Per Container: 50
    Amount Per Serving% Daily Value*
    Calories20
    Total Carbohydrate 5 g 2%
    Sugars5 g **
    Vitamin C10 mg17%
    Vitamin B12.5 mg167%
    Vitamin B24.0 mg235%
    Vitamin B62.0 mg100%
    Vitamin B127.5 mcg125%
    Iron (elemental)**
    (from ferrous gluconate)10 mg56%
    *Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.
    **Daily Value not established.

    Nothing terribly extravagant, but certainly seems to help. My hemoglobin was right at the minimum for a homebirth (12.1) last Thurs, and after my experience last time in the hospital, George Soros couldn't even pay me enough to give birth there again.

    "Highly motivated" doesn't even begin to describe! :D Luckily it tastes good too. It's just finding room to get it in between dairy servings that's the problem...but I suspect I'll continue it after P arrives-I'm ALWAYS anemic, and I'm remarkably warmer than I was before I started it last Thursday.

    And, FWIW, there IS a connection between low potassium and iron supplementation; I'll just bet that's why some forms of iron tend to be more problematic-maybe they're the more effective varieties? IDK.

    When finals are over, I'll look into it more.
    whodathunkit likes this.
  20. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    Yep! Good on you! I'm ashamed I didn't think of it already, because I know that iron and potassium "interfere" with absorption of one another.

    FWIW, I'm severely anemic (recovering, actually), so know a little bit about iron.

    If you're trying to build up iron, a good rule of thumb is to take it two hours away from any other minerals or minerals in food that could block it (i.e., milk because it has has calcium, coffee because it has magnesium and other things, potassium, selenium, etc.).

    I'm just to the point where I take it in the middle of a 4 hour block where I don't drink or eat anything but water and vitamin C. Vitamin C helps boost absorption. I'm seeing big gains in ferritin in a short time by doing this.

    Can you get your hands on some iron glycinate? That's a good, bioavailable form that doesn't constipate. I don't know how it compares with the gluconate form in Floradix, but I can definitely vouch for iron glycinate as effective in boosting iron levels without constipation. I've had problems with iron supps constipating me in the past and iron glycinate does not. Iron on an empty stomach can also make you nauseous, and iron glycinate doesn't do that, either.

    Also, can you take it with some more vitamin C? I don't know what your C dosage is but maybe you could rearrange what you take so that you get more of it at the same time you take the iron...? The 10mg in Floradix IMO probably isn't enough to do you much good.

    Also, FYI, I got a nice and unexpected boost in energy when I started taking liposomal vitamin C a couple of months ago. I don't know if you've tried that but you might consult your health practitioners about it. It's more bioavailable than regular vitamin C, and pretty potent.

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