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Hunting down the cause of ME/CFS & other challenging disorders - Lipkin in London
In a talk to patients in London on 3rd September, Dr. W. Ian Lipkin described the extraordinary lengths he and his team are prepared to go to in order to track down the source of an illness, with examples ranging from autism to the strange case of Kawasaki disease.
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Rich Vank's Simplified Methylation Protocol Poll

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Apr 21, 2010.

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I have tried Rich Vanks Simplified Methylation Protocol with the following results:

  1. I am in effective remission (80%+)

    1 vote(s)
    1.3%
  2. Major Improvement

    20 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. Minor improvement

    22 vote(s)
    27.5%
  4. No change

    22 vote(s)
    27.5%
  5. Minor crash

    2 vote(s)
    2.5%
  6. Moderate crash

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Major crash

    1 vote(s)
    1.3%
  8. Unable to continue protocol

    12 vote(s)
    15.0%
  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Alexa.

    It should be O.K. to inject the hydroxocobalamin. More of it gets into the blood that way than when it is taken sublingually, and much more than when it is just taken orally.

    I think you will have to experiment with the dosages. I would suggest keeping the folate dosages the same at first, to see how it goes. If your symptoms are too much to tolerate, then you can lower the dosages.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  2. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Ashland, OR
    Hi Rich,

    What do you think of the B12 skin patch?

    Mimi
     
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mimi.

    I don't have experience with it, but if it is able to put a couple of milligrams of B12 into the blood in a day's time or so, I think it work alright. The important think is the dosage. Also, I don't know what form of B12 is used in them. I prefer hydroxocobalamin, and some people need methylcobalamin.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  4. Tara

    Tara

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    Wausau, WI
    Will methylation pathways panel results vary for an individual based on their condition on the day they were tested? I had mine drawn today, and had taken some mineral supplements this morning. It was also a relatively better day for me, symptom wise. I am just wondering if it'll prove an accurate representation of how my methylation cycle is working.
     
  5. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Ashland, OR
    That's a good question, Tara. Does anyone out there know?
     
  6. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Tara and Mimi.

    The methylation pathways panel is not very sensitive to whether or not a person takes supplements or how a person feels on the particular day. The sensitive parameters are measured in the red blood cells, and they average over a couple of months or more. Also, the main parameters that are measured are pretty "stubborn" and don't change readily. The protocol takes some months to restore the methylation cycle, folates and glutathione to normal.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  7. Tara

    Tara

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    Wausau, WI
    Perfect. Thanks, Dr. Rich! I look forward to posting my results then, and taking it from there.
     
  8. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Ashland, OR
    Hi Rich,

    I have some good news. I went hiking yesterday and I did 4 miles! I had to take a lot of breaks at first, but once I found my pace, I was able to keep going - flat, then gradually uphill and down. Altogether, I hiked for two and a half hours. As a result, I feel energized, not crashed. My muscles are tired, but inside I feel radiant. And remember, I'm only taking 5 mg. of cortisol.

    It's been 13 days since I started the protocol, and in that time I had only one crash after standing for an hour. But to take care of any detox reaction I might be having, 4 days ago I started taking Dentox to detox any heavy metals and toxins that might have been stirred up. Then I started improving again and going out for a few walks. But hiking in a park? This is different.

    Mimi
     
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mimi.

    It's wonderful to hear your good news! How you feel the next day after that much hiking is the "gold standard" test, and it sounds as though you are passing it with flying colors (pun intended, considering your avatar)!:)
    Here's hoping this trend continues for you!

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  10. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Ashland, OR
    Ha, ha. Me too! Thanks for your good wishes, Rich. I'll let you know what Dr. Eckman says when he reads my pulses later today.

    Edit: After going for a mile walk, and doing my laundry, I bounced into Dr. Eckman's office and told him the good news. He took my pulses and treated me for back pain. Then he did a brief balancing of excess stomach yang and deficient spleen yin, which is my constitutional pattern. I asked him if my pulses were stronger and he said, yes, and that he was very pleased with my progress. So it seems that my progress is in fact real, and not just a momentary flare up of energy.
     
  11. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Ashland, OR
  12. Pegasus

    Pegasus

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    hello all,i have CFS for 6 years now,but last year was my big crash,i started doing dr.Myhill´s mytochondrial protocol for 9 months ago,and i´ve seen a lot of improvement.This includes coq10,L-carnitine,D-Ribose,Magnesium,b12,etc

    Now im thinking of tackling this methylation issue,but i have to say,im very confused about it,regarding whether taking Methylation test from the European Laboratory of Nutrients or the nutrigenomic test from Dr.Yasko.

    I´ve been taking cyanocobalamin b12 shots every 2 days for 9 months,and they´ve helped a lot.
    I mean,how doi do know if i have a methylation problem? i did a homocysteine test,which came out normal,value 4.86 - normal range (5 - 15)

    I also have a twin brother with CFS,so im pretty sure theres a genetic issue here,so Yasko´s test looks good to me.
     
  13. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Ashland, OR
    Rich Van K, I think this one is for you. But I wonder, Pegasus, if you are methylating because of the B12 shots.
     
  14. Pegasus

    Pegasus

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    we´ve been also taking L-Glutathione for a month now,haven´t seen any changes,good or bad.
     
  15. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Ashland, OR
    Hi Pegasus - It's my understanding that most oral glutathione gets broken down. I assume this is what you are taking - ? I'm currently taking 2g of NAC and I added 900mg SAMe yesterday. These seem to help boost energy and brain function.
     
  16. Pegasus

    Pegasus

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    yes,i take 250mg of Oral L-Glutathione in a gelcap,from Puritain´s Pride,which is what´s included in Myhill´s protocol.
    Cant really say i feel any difference besides im sweating more? (maybe?).

    I´ve seen Rich´s video presentation about his theory,and me and my brother fit into that,because we´re twins but we didn´t actually get sick at the same time,he got sick before i did,in a time (20 years old) where he was studying a lot and exercising a lot as well.
    And about 4 years later,when i was in the same situation,i got sick as well.
    So my guess is Genetic Predisposition + Stress Factors,as Rich says.
    We do have some different symptoms tough,for example i have back pain for years now and he doesnt have any pain at all,on the other hand he has a lot of problems with sleeping and so on.
     
  17. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Pegasus.

    I'm glad to hear that you want to look into methylation treatment. My own preference would be to take the methylation pathways panel and the glutathione panel from the European Lab of Nutrients, because it will tell you what is going on in your biochemistry. The nutrigenomic test only tells you tendencies, not what it actually happening in your body.

    If it turns out that you have a partial methylation cycle block and glutathione depletion, you can try treating it with the simplfied methylation protocol, regardless of what your genetic variations might be. This treatment was significantly helpful to two-thirds of the people in the clinical study, when the genetics were ignored and all received the same treatment.

    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it looks to me as though your homocysteine value was below the reference range. Homocysteine is not the best indicator for a partial methylation cycle block, but having a low value does suggest that something is amiss in that part of the metabolism.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  18. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    NY
    I just got some new results, not sure how to interpret them - whether a methylation issue is (likely) involved, whether it's some kind of anemia, etc. Here are the actual numbers:

    Folate 17.9 (ref. 2.8 - 17.0)
    B12 >2000
    Methylmalonic acid 137 (73-376)

    The only folate I take is what's contained in the B-Right formulation. I supplement 2.5-5mg of methyl b-12 per day, after it was shown very low following some bad gastritis and a course of omeprazole. The b12 numbers came up very quickly after supplementing with the sublinguals. I thought the issue was the PPI inhibiting b12 absorption, but now I'm wondering if the inflammatory stomach issues themselves wiped out the intrinsic factor and resulted in the elevated folate from some kind of borderline anemic state, etc.

    Or, on the other hand, would these numbers suggest the methionine enzyme blockage/defect, causing folate not to convert and building up in the bloodstream? Any insight on what might be going on here, and how best I might address it?
     
  19. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, jeffrez.

    I looked up B-Right's composition. It has a total of 400 micrograms of folate, composed of folic acid and methylfolate. However, it doesn't say how much of it is methylfolate.

    My guess is that you are not getting enough methylfolate, while you are taking quite a bit of methyl B12 (I presume sublingually). I suspect that you do have a partial block of methionine synthase because of lack of enough methylfolate. That is probably preserving glutathione depletion, which results in a functional B12 deficiency. The latter would account for the buildup of B12 in your blood. The buildup of folate in your blood may be largely folic acid, and you may be one of the people who are not able to convert folic acid to the chemically reduced forms of folate very rapidly, for genetic reasons involving the DHFR enzyme.

    Are you taking the methylB12 sublingually? If so, I can't say whether your intrinsic factor is O.K. or not. If the stomach inflammation did indeed knock out your ability to produce enough intrinsic factor, that would have depleted your B12 (i.e. you would have had an absolute B12 deficiency), and that would have put a partial block in your methionine synthase. The folate trap mechanism then would have converted other folates to methylfolate, which would have leaked out of the cells into the blood, and that would have given you a high folate level in the blood. Note that this last effect would have been true only if you did not have serious oxidative stress at that time, so that peroxynitrite did not build up and break down the methylfolate, producing low blood folate.

    If you were able to run a methylation pathways panel from Health Diagnostics in New Jersey, it would be possible to understand your current status with regard to these things better. I realize that you are in New York, but I was told by Dr. Audhya that Health Diagnostics can forward samples from New York to their European parent lab and run them there, though they are not certified in New Jersey to run New York samples.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
    Lotus97 likes this.
  20. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Hi Rich - TY for your analysis. My alt doc is in MA, I'm going in a couple weeks, think I'll see if they can order & run the methylation panel from there. I assume the results will be faster that way than waiting for everything to go to Europe and back? Is any special test kit required, or can we just send standard blood draws from MA and have HD take care of it using those & a credit card #?

    In the meantime, think I will reduce mb12 even more, down to around 1mg, with the intent of switching over to hydroxy as soon as I can order and receive that. Without the sublingual mb12, my b12 was almost totally wiped out, but I was also on the omeprazole at that time, so it's hard to say if it's from intrinsic factor deficiency or b/c of the drug. Either way, think I feel more comfortable with hydroxy at this point, as the IVs I had with mb12 seemed to cause side effects, the first time even lasting for a couple weeks. The hydroxy IVs by contrast have been fine.

    I didn't think folate conversion was an issue for me, b/c I get the same super low heart rate and depression symptoms both from methylfolate and standard folic acid. But maybe there is some issue there slowing down conversion, which I suppose is very hard to say w/out the meth panel. Otoh, I don't seem to get those symptoms from the folate in the B-right, strangely enough, which is why I was taking that - to at least be getting some supplemental folate. If it's not converting though, or converting too slowly to be effective, I guess it's just counterproductive at this point, and I should dump the B-right for one of the non-folate B-complexes and start micro-dosing the methylfolate.

    Does all that sound right, or at least reasonable? : P Was hoping to avoid the methylation panel b/c of the expense, but it might be better to just put all guesswork aside and know for sure. Can you say with certainty that there would be distinct advantages from a treatment standpoint from having the test, as opposed to just trial and error and seeing what works clinically, and with standard labs guiding me as far as the folate & b12 levels?

    Btw, I also have low CD8, high EBV, and some other infections - mycoplasma pneumoniae, etc. Think we're going to work on treating those at my next visit, as I'm sure those are playing into this presumed GSH-depletion problem, also.
     

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