1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Give ME the Money
Graham McPhee spells out some of the cold, hard facts about the dismal state of ME research and politics, and has some suggestions as to what we can do about it ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Revision of the GD-MCB hypothesis for the pathogenesis and pathophysiology of ME/CFS

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Jan 13, 2012.

  1. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,483
    Likes:
    1,744
    East Coast, USA
    Rich, if it's not privileged information - Do you know how much hydroxyb12:5-MTHF Prof. Pall uses? Because that could easily be my next experiment. I've just moved my dose of Metafolin up to 1600mcg/day, and haven't yet added a b12.
     
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    758
    Hi, Madie.

    I think Marty's current recommendations are here:

    http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/proddesc/discuss/MartinPallAntioxidantSuggestions.pdf

    Looks like 1,000 micrograms per day of a new form of 5-MTHF and 60 micrograms per day of hydroxocobalamin. Looks like there would also be 800 micrograms per day of folic acid.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  3. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

    Messages:
    166
    Likes:
    4
    Thank you!

    I don't want to re-post here, but my new post about parasthesia may be relevant. I just don't know.
     
  4. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,725
    Likes:
    12,655
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Hi Rich, that interactive diagram you posted a link to got me thinking: has anyone tried serine to try to boost conversion of homocysteine to cysteine? I have seen similar diagrams, but this time the serine leapt out at me. Bye, Alex

    PS This might be another reason why meat eaters sometimes do better: serine is an amino acid.
     
  5. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    758
    Hi, Alex.

    I don't know. Sometimes serine is low on amino acids panels of PWMEs. I think it's usually because of low B6, because B6 is needed for transamination reactions, and serine is a nonessential amino acid, which can be made in the body. I frequently find low B6 on these panels, and I think it's because PWMEs burn amino acids for fuel more than normal, and transamination reactions are needed to feed the into the Krebs cycle beyond the partial block at aconitase. (Actually, voner was the one who posted that link.)

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  6. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,483
    Likes:
    1,744
    East Coast, USA
    I see 120mcg hydroxyb12 and 1600mcg folic acid - 2 multis twice a day. That's an amazingly small amount of b12! And it's swallowed. Interesting.

    Thanks

    Madie

    edit: I did the math wrong. Rich's numbers are correct.
     
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    758
    Hi, Madie.

    I think the dosages for MVA are specified for a serving size of two capsules, so two capsules twice a day would be 60 and 800, rather than 120 and 1600, I think.

    Yes, it is a low amount of B12, and it is swallowed. At one time, Marty told me that they were working on a liposomal hydroxocobalamin, as I recall, but I don't see it in his current protocol.

    Note also that there is quite a bit of folic acid, which could compete for transport with the 5-MTHF.

    I think Marty is focusing on using this new form of 5-MTHF to scavenge peroxynitrite, and he may be less concerned about scavenging nitric oxide, which is what he has emphasized that hydroxocobalamin will do. As you may know, he has a different theory for the pathophysiology of ME/CFS, and peroxynitrite plays a big role in it. He does not buy into the functional B12 deficiency.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  8. redo

    redo Senior Member

    Messages:
    830
    Likes:
    89
    First I'd like to point out that I think that methylation issues are key to understanding CFS (and IMO several autoimmune conditions in general), so the reason I ask is not to be critical.

    What I wonder, is how the methylation theory explains the increase in prevalence of both CFS and autism in the Western world? If one would assume that it's not only better diagnostics which is causing the syndromes to be more and more prevalent.
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,582
    Likes:
    958
    Salt Lake City

    Hi Redo,

    Incidence of all manner of neurological disorders in the industrialized vitamin taking vitamin enriched foods and baby formula part of the world. These climb with the rate of cycbl, hycbl and folic acid replacing the real vitamins. I think that methylation deoesn't get blocked the same way if people have mb12 and adb12 and natural folates in their foods. The smaller incidence of 60 years ago would have been limited to people with actual deficiencies of these things caused by eating/absorbtion problems or natural paradoxical folate deficiency. Now it has all those same people plus those who have paradoxical folate deficiency and paradoxical b12 deficiency who can't assimilate the inactive vitamirs that have replaced the natural ones.

    These are man made deficiency diseases just as beri-beri and pellagra were created by the roller mill making perfect white flour or scurvy from long sea voyages on limited incomplete foods.

    So I think that methylation theroy is an excellent fit since a broken methylation system is a major effect of inactive cyanocbl, hydroxycbl, folic acid and for some folinic acid. Broken methylation, whether of the "partial block" theory or "depleted methyaltion capacity" theory or whatever variations is a mjor effect of lack of mb12/methylfoalte. The crippled mitochondria is often from the lack of adb12, the other major leg of rthese many broken system diseases.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page