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Revised Simplified Methylation Protocol (August 25, 2012 Revision)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Aug 25, 2012.

  1. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I'm wondering why there is no mention of supplemental SAMe in this protocol? I'd read elsewhere that this was recommended for undermethylators.
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Rich based his protocol mainly on the study he conducted with Dr. Nathan. I assume undermethylators would need extra methyl donors such as SAMe and/or TMG, but I don't know much about SNPs. They might also need methylcobalamin and higher doses of methylfolate. Before Rich's most recent protocol, he would just tell people who didn't have success with his protocol to try Freddd's protocol which seems to be more geared towards undermethylators. In this protocol (his most recent one), Rich does say to switch to methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin if you aren't improving and also suggests increasing methylfolate. This is what Rich has said in the past about this subject
  3. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi,

    Rich did suggest SAMe in the first version of his protocol (2007), but found that many did not tolerate it so later he suggested SAMe if you were low in it and if you tolerated it.

    Best,
    Sushi
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    For anyone who is taking the Neurological Health Formula, I noticed that it includes Intrinsic Factor. Intrinsic factor will improve absorption of B12 in the gut. While you absorb most of your B12 sublingually (holding the tablet under the tongue or between the lower or upper lip), the sublingual will eventually be digested after it dissolves so it would be a good idea to take at least some of the NHF tablets at the same time as you take your sublingual. I can't really say for sure how much this will help though.
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I found a store that ships international and carries the Perque Hydroxocobalamin.
    http://pureformulas.com/activated-b12-2000mcg-100-lozenges-by-perque.html#sthash.mIWXmygN.dpbs
    They also ship free on any size order (at least for US orders I'm not sure about international). And if you use next10 as a code in your shopping cart (different from the referral code they ask for when signing up) you'll get 10% off your entire order. If that coupon code is expired there might be a new one on retailmenot, but I just checked and next10 is still valid as of this post.
    Skyline likes this.
  6. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Can someone clarify the brand or name of folinic acid that Rich is recommending here other than the one available from Yasko's site.

    At one time Metagenics 'Intrinsi B12/Folate' was being used but I see it's been discontinued at iherb which is where I normally shop.

    Are there others or can you tell me the specific term of the ingredient I look for on the label?
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Rich doesn't recommend a specific brand for folinic acid. The reason Rich doesn't recommend intriniB12 is because the formula changed so it no longer has folinic acid. Source Naturals sells Megafolinic which seems to be reasonably priced.

    Also, calcium folinate is the same as folinic acid. Thorne has a few b complexes with both calcium folinate/folinic acid and methylfolate. I'm not sure if Thorne's methylfolate is as potent as Metafolin which is in the Metagenics and Solgar brand of methylfolate.

    There's also a b complex with only folinic acid. Supplement facts listed are for 2 capsules.
    http://www.wellnessresources.com/products/super_b_complex.php
    And a multi vitamin with only folinic acid. Supplement facts are for 4 capsules or 2 tablets.
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/two.html
    That same shop also has multi with both folinic acid and methylfolate. Supplement facts are for 4 capsuels.
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/vitamin-formulas/mighty-multi-vite.html
  8. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    Thanks so much for clarifying this and also for the providing the links. Much appreciated. I'm getting ready to retry the protocol and of course, have to relearn all of the pertinent information again.

    Best Wishes,
    shannah
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    No problem. What happened with your earlier attempt(s)?
  10. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    When trying it years ago, I can't remember all the reasons for setting it aside. Probably have notes on it somewhere. But I do remember there were major problems with passing out. Was always running for the closest couch or bed.
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    It's always good to start with low doses and also make sure you don't have low potassium. I'm not sure if the passing out is from low potassium or not, but you might want to look into that.
  12. Whit

    Whit Senior Member

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    I'm sorry I can't read very much right now, but can someone help me by letting me know how a B complex like Jarrow B Right fits into this? If it has Methyl B12 can I also take Hydroxy B12?
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    B12 taken orally (such as that in the B Right) isn't very effective for the people here because the absorption rate in the gut is very low compared to B12 taken sublingually. The B Right b complex isn't recommended though because it has folic acid and folic acid can cause problems for some people. I don't know if it's absolutely necessary for you to stop folic acid immediately, but it would be good to transition towards using supplements without folic acid. In post #67 of this thread, I recommended a b complex and multi dose multivitamins that can be used as b complexes. If you do try one of these b complexes, make sure you adjust your methylation dose accordingly since they either have folinic acid (as calcium folinate) or folinic acid and methylfolate. It would be good to stick to the recommended doses when starting the protocol. If you're taking the Neurological Health Formula you might not want to also take the one with a lot of P5P since the NHF also has P5P. There's also a supplement on sale (buy one get one free) at Swanson's that has B1, B2, B3, B5, and choline (no B6/P5P or biotin) which could be used as a b complex.
    http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-condition-specific-formulas-fibro-essentials-90-caps
    They're also having a 10% off sale along with free shipping over $50 until the 30th. This is the code SAVEATSHP.

    As for the difference between hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin, methylcobalamin is what's needed for methylation. Rich recommends starting with hydroxocobalamin because most people can convert it into an adequate amount of methylcobalamin (and adenosylcobalamin). In the first post of the thread, Rich explains in more detail why he recommends starting with hydroxocobalamin and also gives instructions on switching to methylcobalamin if necessary.
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Some people have said that holding B12 is better absorbed when held between your upper lip and gum (rather than under your tongue) because it lasts longer. I have found that the Perque hydroxocobalamin dissolves rather quickly under the tongue, but sometimes doesn't seem to dissolve at all when put between the upper lip and gum. It does dissolve slower between the lower lip and gum. I don't know for sure if it's better absorbed than under the tongue. There was a study using an older version of Rich's protocol that used Perque's hb12 and my guess is they just held it under their tongue and the study still produced good results. Maybe between the lower lip and gum (rather than under the tongue) would have produced better results.
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So I found out the 10% off NEXT10 code for Pureformulas no longer works on certain brands including Perque. Holistic Health does sell Perque hydroxocobalamin now so you can order it from them when you order the Neurological Health Formula. The methylfolate, folinic acid, and lecithin would be cheaper at either iHerb or Swanson. There's coupon codes at retailmenot for these stores. The lecithin can also be bought in powder form which is cheaper. One teaspoon would be the equivalent of Rich recommends. Even though the buy one get one free offer expired on that Fibro Essentials supplement from Swanson I think it's still a pretty good deal and would be good to order if you're not taking any b complexes since the NHF is low in other b vitamins besides B6/P5P.
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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  17. Leon

    Leon

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    I hoped I could ask a further few questions about treatment (apologies for cross posting):

    1. Is it acceptable to post up the Methylation Pathway Panel analysis here? I don't have a doctor to do this for me.

    2. What does "rebalancing" mean in terms of doses of mythylfolate and Metafolin? I only see, for example, 200mcg of methylfolate as the dose to use.

    3. I'm having real difficulty establishing the vitamins/mineral base - 100mg of Vit C (powder) seemed to give me a sore throat; 100mg of magnesium oxide seems to make my heart beat hard for about 10-15 mins (and epsom salt baths wipe me out for days) . I'm now getting a bit gun shy. Are these normal? I've a very leaky gut due to candida and seem to be reacting to many foods. I'm also willing to accept that some symptoms could be psychosomatic!

    The ingredients of the magnesium tablets are as followed:

    Magnesium Oxide, Bulking Agent (Microcrystalline Cellulose), Sodium Carboxymethylcellulose, Anti- Caking Agents (Magnesium Stearate, Magnesium Silicate), Glazing Agents (Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose, Glycerine, Carnauba Wax), Colour (Titanium Dioxide).

    Has anyone tried magnesium oil?

    4. I know magnesium and potassium are both electrolytes, so I wondered if titrating the dose of one could intensify the deficiency in the other?

    Thanks very much.
  18. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Rich Vank made an excellent interpretation of the Methylation Pathways Panel. The link is in my signature.
    Magnesium oxide, while cheap, doesn't absorb very well. Plus yours has all kinds of fillers which you may or may not tolerate. Magnesium should be calming, not causing heartbeats, so maybe it is the fillers.

    I'm having good luck with Vinco's magnesium glycinate powder. You mix it in water and drink it. I haven't personally tried magnesium oil, but I know someone who uses it on occasion. I require a lot more magnesium than I could get out of magnesium oil (I think it's something like 200mg per application?)

    I don't think increasing the mag would decrease the potassium, at least that has not been my experience. I take lots of magnesium and no potassium. My potassium levels are high normal on my Nutreval test.

    I'm not sure about the Vit. C. It sounds like maybe it's causing some throat irritation? Are you mixing it with water and drinking it? 100mg isn't very much in the scheme of things.

    I'm having good luck with BioEnergyC which is vitamin C buffered with ribose. Kind of expensive, but it lasts a long time at the rate I take it (1/8 to 1/4 tsp 4X a day). You may or may not tolerate the ribose. It gives me a bit of energy, so I like it.

    I mix all of my electrolytes and the vit. C together in water and drink it four times a day. My particular formula is magnesium, salt and vit C/ribose. You may or may not need potassium in addition.
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  19. jimmy86

    jimmy86

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    Indeed, there are more and more reports in Germany from people that got better with s-acetyl glutathione. It is called eumetabol (you can google it but the page will be in German). I tried Rich's protocol for about a year and got mildly better. I am getting my glutathione levels checked this week and will start to supplement glutathione directly.
    Blue likes this.
  20. Blue

    Blue

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    Could you point me to any of these reports? I am following symptome.ch - as I saw you do as well ;-), but I can only find one success story there regarding Eumetabol. If there were more, that would be great! :)

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