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Revised Simplified Methylation Protocol (August 25, 2012 Revision)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Aug 25, 2012.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Hmm, some people have problems raising Glutathione too high too quickly such as from an IV push and probably s-acetyl glutathione and liposomal glutathione. Some people can't tolerate glutathione supplementation at all and need to use indirect methods such as methylation. I'm not sure why, but it's been discussed in a lot of threads.

    To answer my earlier question about why Rich doesn't have Glutathione in his methylation protocol, here is one of his posts about why methylation is the best way to raise Glutathione.
    One question I have though is if there is any harm in taking Glutathione in addition to his methylation protocol. I seem to remember reading one of his posts saying that in the initial stages of methylation Glutathione levels actually drop.

    Since this thread is about Rich's methylation protocol I don't want to take this off topic, but since I already mentioned these earler I should post a warning about some of the risks ALA and NAC present for those who are mercury toxic. Although these can be effective in boosting glutathione and removing mercury, Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA), NAC, L-Cysteine, and possibly R-Lipioc Acid can all be double-edged swords in terms of mercury detox so if you suspect you might have a high mercury burden then these should be used with caution. In fact, if you have a high mercury burden then methylation should be approached very cautiously.

    As far as Alpha Lipoic Acid goes it is used as a chelator for mercury, but if done incorrectly mercury will not be eliminated and instead be redistributed in the body including possibly the brain or other vital organs. Although I'm not an Andy Cutler follower many people swear by him and he warns against using ALA incorrectly. One thing I disagree with him on is that taking ALA can chelate mercury directly from amalgams. Whether or not this is true, I've taken high doses of Alpha Lipoic Acid (1200mg/day) without any problems. However, if I had done this a few years ago when I was having problems possibly caused by my amalgams it probably would have been dangerous. Besides Andy Cutler, there are plenty of threads on this site and other places such as Curezone that discuss mercury detoxification.

    With NAC, L-Cystine, and L-Cysteine Rich cautions the use of it if one is mercury toxic because it could lead to elevated Cysteine levels and also mercury redistribution to the brain.
    http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cf...atigue-syndrome-mecfs-by-rich-van-konynenburg
     
  2. Jaz

    Jaz

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    Hi Lotus97 !
    i have a question, i am wondering about methylation in general. Is it mostly people with CFS and issues like that who go on the Methylation protocols ? I am suspectinb B12 deficiency and my most bothersome symptom is my spreading numbness which has been going on for about a year but it has been speeding up since 2 months ago and i'm freaking out.
    would it be smart to do these protocols even if i don't have CFS or any diagnosed conditions?

    thank you
     
  3. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    B12 and methylation in general is essential to nerve health, so I would say yes, this is probably a good idea. You can start with the B12 (perhaps 1mg sublingual) and see how you feel. Then you can add the other supplements later. The most important is definitely B12. If you are not sensitive I would choose methyl B12, as it is more effective in nerve healing compared to other forms. There is certainly no harm in titrating to the doses that Rich suggests, that is around 2mg B12 and 400mcg folate.
     
    Lotus97 likes this.
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Do you have any idea how much hydroxocobalamin and adenosylcobalamin/dibencozide convert to methyl B12? Rich has said that methylcobalamin could potentially cause problems for those with mercury issues. I wonder though if it's the methylation process in general that causes the issues and not specifically methylcobalamin, but I'll include the quote and let people decide for themselves.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylb12-how-much-is-too-much.8391/#post-159278
     
  5. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I don't know how much is converted. It sounds like Jaz is not ill besides having B12 deficiency and neuropathy, so I wouldn't be too worried about that in his case. But, maybe if someone is worried about this, they might do a metal/mineral test beforehand. I have heard of many compounds being able to move mercury around: methyl B12, NAC, ALA etc. But, is it more than a theoretical concern? Do we know of people who have gotten into trouble over this? As always, we have to weigh the risks against the benefits. The risks of a known, severe B12 deficiency are pretty bad. And if you have neuropathy, your nerves really need the methyl B12.
     
    Lotus97 likes this.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was asking partially for myself, but there was another person in this thread who also asked the same question. After I had one of my amalgams removed I was taking a high dose of ALA and NAC and a low dose of methyl B12 and methylfolate. I had tolerated all of those fine for at least a year leading up to that (except the methylfolate), but after that they caused me a lot of problems. I'm not sure what to think about Andy Cutler's warnings about ALA. They seem a little extreme, but it can't hurt to be cautious. For methylcobalamin though it did sound like Rich was saying basically the same thing as you that it is mostly theoretical. I don't have a lot of knowledge in this area, but from what I've heard from other people's experiences is that methylation in general can mobilize metals. Here's what Rich says:
    I have another question about methyl B12. Doctors have said my chronic pain is nerve pain. Would methyl B12 help that too? Gabapentin or Lyrica which are supposed to be for nerve pain didn't help at all, but I haven't responded to supplements that affect GABA receptors either although maybe I'm comparing apples and oranges. I don't really understand the mechanisms in which Gabapentin or Lyrica work.
     
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Hm. Gabapentin and Lyrica block ion channels, leading to less excitation of the nerves. This should normally help with pain. I am not sure why this doesn't in your case.

    Pain is normally mediated through NMDA receptors - glutamate. So high glutamate levels would cause pain. Again, the meds should help with hyperstimulation and release of glutamate. Inflammation can be another source of pain. Maybe you have high inflammation levels. Just my 2 cents.
     
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  8. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Lotus97

    Personally, I've found that Methylcobalamin has worked best for nearly all my pain, be it nerve, joint, even psychic pain. It's just slow to work.

    I did try Lyrica for a time... it helped a little, but there were the side effects. I tried to talk the doctor into giving me morphine. She said no. ( mean ol' nanny)

    Now, I can present myself to her with no more need for pain meds., at least.

    Potassium is good for other types of pain, muscular,etc. It's good for moods too.
     
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  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I found one of Rich's most recent posts (August 15, 2012) on Glutathione supplementation in relation Methylation. The post is dated 10 days before this thread was created so I assume it was Rich's final opinion on it.
     
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Since there was only a short mention of potassium supplementation in this thread I thought I'd post one of Rich's more in-depth posts about potassium. There are plenty of threads about potassium which can provide more info on how to go about supplementing potassium.

     
    Michael likes this.
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Thanks for this Lotus. I have a lecithin formula I rashly ordered w/o thinking it through, sitting in my refrig. I'll order this one now. ahmo
     
  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    My self-testing strongly rejects it. It's Nutricology's Lipo-Phos Forte. I took the advice from heartfixer, but as soon as I ordered it, had misgivings. No GMO statement, so presumably made of GMO soy. thanks.
     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    In addition to phospholipids, there are other supplements for mitochodrial support. They include coenzyme q10/ubiquinol, carnitine, alpha lipoic acid/R-lipoic, PQQ, and Shilajit/Fulvic Acid. Caution should used with lipoic acid if one suspects mercury toxicity because it can mobilize the mercury. Also Shilajit/Fulvic Acid has been used for metal toxicity, but if used improperly it can also cause problems for those with metal toxicity. It's recommend to use Shilajit/Fulvic Acid with non-chlorinated water because the chlorine can interact with it. Also, all of these supplements can be overstimulating so it's recommended to start at a low dose (maybe even half a capsule for some of them) and only add one thing at a time. These should probably be added only after a person has been doing methylation for a period of time since methylation can also be overstimulating and it's important to gauge how well the methylation supplements are working before adding anything new. Improving mitochondrial function can increase ATP and Glutathione production. Of course, methylation itself also increases ATP and Glutathione among other things. Although I'm not suggesting to buy from iHerb, a search using "mitochondria" or "mitochondrial" can provide some other supplements used for mitochondria support and also provide information from customer reviews to find out how well they work and also potential side effects.
     
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I just checked the ingredients of that Fish Oil Phospholipids product and it does have sunflower lecithin. Somehow I thought it was natural phospholipids like Krill Oil. I deleted my posts to avoid any confusion.
     
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    After some failed attempts at methylation I decided to start again. I'm taking 100 mcg folinic acid, 100 mcg methylfolate, 1000 mcg hydroxocobalamin, 250 mcg adenosylcobalamin, and various cofactors. I'm also taking around 500 mg of Niacin to prevent me from overmethylating. I was wondering if anyone knows how long I should wait before I increase the dosage. Thanks.
     
  16. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    Why the adenoB12? I understand the combination with mB12 but not with hB12, would you be so kind to explain?

    How long to wait. Three or seven days, according to Ben Jenkins of mthfr.net. In his latest videos he's advising seven days, as far as I know.
    But negative effects of methylfolate may even turn up after a week, he said. (When starting some have an incredible first week, "happy, interacting and alert. Then the second week comes and they switch to wanting to hide in a room by themselves or literally throw dishes across the room out of anger. Or they may become bed ridden from muscle aches, intense headaches or joint pain".)

    If you want to be safe: take at least seven days before increasing.
     
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  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'm taking the adb12 because it's in a sublingual b complex by Source Naturals I bought. I'm only taking 1/4 of a tablet twice a day so I'm not sure I'm really getting enough of the other b vitamins even though some of the other ones are in coenzymated forms too. I've considered scrapping that idea and just taking hb12.

    My last methylation attempt I was taking both adb12 and hb12. It was going ok, but then upped the dose of each. I'm not exactly sure what the dosage was after I increased it, but maybe around 2000 mcg hb12 and 500-1000 mcg adb12. There might have been some days where I took more hb12 and less adb12, but I'm pretty sure I never went above 2000 of the hb12. I think I might have decreased the adb12 once I increased the hb12, but I don't remember. I wasn't taking any folate except that I was getting around 300 mcg from my food. Then I decided to add folinic acid first before methylfolate, but I misread Rich's instructions and was taking 800 mcg instead of 200 mcg. I did that for about 5 days and then stopped. Then I gradually stopped the B12 too. The overstimulation eventually died down, but didn't go away completely. I think this is because my adrenals are really screwed up now. Then I got really depressed so I decided to start methylation again because I was thinking it would help. Actually, when I got up this morning I took folate, B12, and a little glutathione and I felt really good after that. I am aware that the effects of methylation stack up as the days go on which is why I'm being cautious about increasing the dose.

    I thought the methylfolate was the main thing to cause problems which is why I was waiting to add it. My first attempt at methylation I was only taking methylfolate. I wasn't taking any B12 unless you count 200 mcg methylcobalamin taken orally. My first "attempt" actually wasn't really and attempt. I had never heard of methylation before. The reason I was taking those was because I was taking Jarrow's B Right b complex. I took it for over a year and then they added methylfolate to the formula. By sheer coincidence I started taking the B Right with methylfolate a few days after my tooth with an amalgam cracked. I don't know if that's why I reacted so strongly to the methylfolate or if I'm just sensitive or both. It took a month or two of extreme overstimulation and heart palpitations and only after discovering Phoenix Rising and reading about methylation did I figure out what was going on. I remember reading one of Rich's posts saying that for some people a toothpick of methylfolate is enough to blow them away. After I stopped methylfolate I got really tired, but my mood was good. I eventually started methylation again after a few weeks because I assumed I needed to do it based on my reaction to methylfolate. I tried methylcobalamin first and I got overstimulated right away. I then read a quote by Rich saying that methylcobalamin could methylate inorganic mercury so I stopped. Otherwise I might have tried taking 1/4 tablet or something.
     
  18. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Lotus97;
    I agree that too many methyl groups can cause overstimulation, even inflammation in certain people.( They do have a degree of toxicity, in excess.)
    I've been having to reduce the amount of methyl donors I've been consuming, even MB12.
    Many people are sensitive to methyl donors, ( genetic polymorphisms), and respond better to Hydroxocobalamin.
     
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I think part of my problem is that I'm taking a lot of supplements related to methylation, but I'm taking them for reasons other than methylation. I think I need the other supplements as much as the B12 and folate so I guess I'll just be careful with those.
     
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    As I mentioned earlier, I'm getting at least 300 mcg of reduced folate from my food in addition to the supplemental folinic acid and methylfolate I'm taking. Someone told me that only meat has methylfolate so I thought I was only getting an extra 30-50 mcg of methylfolate and the rest was folinic acid. According to Rich, it turns out that methylfolate is in some of the other foods I'm eating. Perhaps meat has only methylfolate while other foods have a combination of folinic acid and methylfolate.
    The main folates found in vegetables are 5L-methyl tetrahydrofolate and folinic acid, both of which are readily used in the bodies of most people.
     

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