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Revised Simplified Methylation Protocol (August 25, 2012 Revision)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Aug 25, 2012.

  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Madie.

    The purpose of the lecithin, or omega-3 fatty acids, or Smart Youthful Energy, or the powdered phospholipids is to help to repair the membranes in the cells that have been damaged by oxidative stress, especially the mitochondrial membranes. If a person can take the phospholipids in their final forms, it will save the cells from having to make them from scratch. But if a person can't tolerate them, then it is still possible to supply the essential fatty acids and rely on the cells to make their own phospholipids from them. (The essential fatty acids are the most vulnerable to damage from oxidative stress.) It just takes more energy and time to do it that way. Using the preformed phospholipids is intended to give the cells a boost and save them time and energy. Dr. Nicolson has reported very good results with the so-called "Lipid Replacement Therapy," using preformed phospholipids, and I would like to take advantage of that, but people will have to do what they can tolerate. So many people have reported that getting their energy back has been one of the slowest aspects of their recovery process, and I think that the damaged inner mitochondrial membranes may be a big part of the cause of that.

    I hope that your cells are making good use of the salmon oil for making their own phospholipids.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  2. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I'm sorry to be johnny-come-lately on this, but I didn't know you were taking suggestions and I wanted to make sure this was working for me before I posted.

    I've had great results taking s-acetyl glutathione per a recommendation in a recent presentation by Dietrich Klinghardt. I knew when I started your protocol having a glutathione source was paramount, but I hesitated at the cost of this - $100 for 60 100 mg caps from Allergy Research. And then I got too sick to even remember what was going on. Toxicity, who me? Heavy metals? I was too confused to realize what hit me. Fortunately, a friend who is familiar with the SMP stepped in.

    I started doing DMSA in August, about 6 weeks after starting the protocol. That was a big help. But what really cleared my brain in 45 minutes flat was the s-acetyl glutathione. It lifted my mood, gave me energy, and made for a beautiful day. I have been much, much, much better ever since, and am now getting ready to go back to work.

    Nature Doc has a much better priced product than ARG at $75 for 60 caps at 300 mg. Service was extremely courteous and shipping was fast and free. You can read about it here: http://www.naturedoc.com/products/acetyl-glutathione.html. The main differentiator from other forms of glutathione is it remains whole until it gets in your cell, where it is de-acetylized. This leaves the glutathione molecule available in it's entirety. So no breaking it down and reassembling the fragments. It may even be more effective than an IV push - and at a fraction of the cost.

    I started out with 2 caps, and then took up to 6 a day which made me feel great. After a couple weeks, I took 10 days off and just did NAC 2-2.5g/day. Now I'm back on the glutathione at a lower dose of 2 caps (600 mg/day). So if my monthly cost is $75 per bottle of 60 for 18 g, that's cheaper than my doctor's ~1800 mg IV, for 10X the GSH, at my convenience.

    Mimi
  3. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mimi.

    I very much appreciate your posting this report on your experience with S-acetyl glutathione and the less expensive source for it. It's great to hear that it has worked well for you. I think this is only the second report I've seen, the other one being from a person in Germany, who also had good results. I think the cost has prevented some people from trying it. I started suggesting it, as well as liposomal glutathione, some time back, as two possibilities for actually getting glutathione into the cells to help raise it faster on the methylation protocol. Most IV glutathione is taken out of the blood by the kidneys, which probably do benefit, but it isn't a very effective way to raise glutathione in other organs, tissues and cells, and especially not for the longer term. I'm glad to hear that Dr. Klinghardt is encouraging the use of S-acetyl glutathione, too.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  5. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    I have had excellent results from the compounded 2-part transdermal glutathione from Lee Silsby.
    One does need an Rx though. One less thing to swallow! The two-part mix is, I think, what helps keep it stable.
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Could a person wth low b2 and b3 tolerate thsi kind of glut? or would it get fried too....?
  7. lilian54

    lilian54

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    I had good results from first following some of Fredd's and now for the last couple of years a protocol similar to Rich's. Very high doses of B12 (6 or more x 5000mcg m-B12 lozenges each day) seemed to be necessary to recover from the bad place I was, nearly unable to walk or sleep and losing my mind. As I got better, I reduced the dose and now I take one 5000mcg m-b12 per day plus fish oil, metafolin, a multivit/mineral and every few days one dibencozide (a-b12). I was also diagnosed with very low cortisol/adrenal exhaustion and have been taking T3 and Nutri Adrenal x 4 for the past 6 months.

    I'm still improving - so the constant fatigue isn't constant now and the loss of sensation, sense of smell/taste, anxiety etc is all better than it was. However, I still can't deal with exertion very well - if I spend an hour or two gardening or walking my legs feel heavy and my energy is nil. My question is, is there anything which I'm not taking which might help with this? And/or should I try reducing the m-b12 further - might the amount be overdriving the cycle?

    Many thanks
  8. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, AQG.

    If B2 or B3 are deficient, yes, the glutathione will become oxidized. If one continues to bring more in, it may be possible to keep the ratio of reduced to oxidized glutathione up inside the cells, because the cells will export excess oxidized glutathione if they are not able to recycle it to reduced glutathione. But I think it would be better to get the B2 and B3 up, because they are also important for lots of other reactions.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Lilian.

    I presume that you have been taking the methyl B12 sublingually. If so, that's a big dosage of B12.

    I'm glad to hear that you have had some improvement in symptoms.

    If you would take methylfolate (such as in FolaPro or Metafolin or Quatrefolic) together with the methylB12 and the other things you are taking, I think you would experience more benefit, since both B12 and folate are needed to lift the partial methylation cycle block. Multivitamins usually contain folic acid, and it is not an active form of folate, and must be converted in the body, which is slow for some people. If you add methylfolate, it would probably be best to lower the methylB12 to 2000 micrograms per day or so. You could come up from there if you do not experience benefit at that dosage, but too much methylfolate and methyl B12 together can indeed overdrive the methylation cycle, which can slow the recovery of glutathione.

    As always, I recommend working with a physician while on this type of treatment.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    Lotus97 likes this.
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich. I was just reading someone's experience taking PC on the Andy Cutler chelation Yahoo Group. They've been chelating for a while and recently started taking over 5g/day of PC which improved their brain fog a great deal.

    A good percentage of lecithin contains PC, but over 5g/day is much more than what you're recommending-just FYI :)


    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/frequent-dose-chelation/message/93353
    Ailsa likes this.
  11. lilian54

    lilian54

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    Thanks, Rich - I am taking Metafolin, since I read about it here, for the last couple of months, a quarter of a tablet per day. I think it's been helping. I will try a 2000mcg dose of m-b12, have to be careful I don't go too low and fall off the edge as it's very hard to get back again (did that once, when advised - not on this forum - to stop all B12 to establish baseline B12 serum level). So I'll watch carefully for effects.
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Has anyone been trying this protocol? I would like to hear other people's experiences since this protocol has changed since Rich's previous protocol. Does anyone know why he doesn't recommend Glutathione supplementation anymore? I know methylation is supposed to increase Glutathione production over time, but in the beginning Glutathione levels will be depressed. Also, what if we're not able to follow the complete protocol? Would Glutathione supplementation be ok? I know some people say Glutathione shouldn't be taken under any circumstance and I believe that is true for some people, but does this apply to everyone?

    I've been taking mostly hydroxocobalamin since Rich said that it was a "gentler" approach, but that seems to be too much for me. I have Lyme and mercury issues and Rich has said that both of those conditions can cause problems for people trying methylation so I'm going to stop B12 for awhile and then take lower doses. I'm also taking a B-Complex, mineral supplements, and Phosphatidyl Serine. I also plan on taking Krill oil which contains phospholipids and Alpha GPC which increases phospholipid synthesis. SAMe and/or TMG (which increases SAM-e) can be useful for phospholipids and methylation in general (I think Fredd has these in his protocol) although some people have problems with these so they should probably be started at a low dose. Also, I think Betaine HCL (which is included in many digestive enzymes) can act the same as TMG (aka Betaine Anhydrous).
  13. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Hi, Lotus97,

    Rich said above, "I think the cost has prevented some people from trying it. I started suggesting it, as well as liposomal glutathione, some time back, as two possibilities for actually getting glutathione into the cells to help raise it faster on the methylation protocol." From this, I infer that the reason was cost. But if you can afford Nature Doc s-acetyl glutathione, that's the cheapest I have found on the market, short of ordering a kilo from a German chemical manufacturer.

    Mimi
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I realize those forms of Glutathione are more expensive, but what about reduced Glutathione? There's a reduced Glutathione sublingual from Source Naturals which is reasonably priced and also has 140 mcg of Molybdenum in it which is important for Glutathione production. I was also considering trying to make a transdermal cream with powder from a Glutathione capsule. Another option would to be to take acetyl glutathione or liposomal glutathione, but just take a lower dosage. Maybe those options aren't enough by themselves, but they can be taken along with other Glutathione precursors like SAMe, TMG, Alpha Lipoic Acid, and NAC.
  15. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    I take 3 of the 4 precursors you mention above and am considering adding the fourth, but I still take s-acetyl gluthatione because I feel they all do slightly different things. Especially ALA which is good for the brain and chelates mercury out.

    Of the all the forms of gluthione I have tried, only IV push and s-acetyl gave me noticeable results. It will be interesting to see what others have to say.
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I noticed that two threads of Rich's older protocols were sticky, but this one isn't. I'm going to try posting here on a regular basis, but is there someone I can speak to about getting this thread sticky as well?
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    For those looking for an affordable multi-vitamin with low doses of methylfolate, folinic acid/calcium folate, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin/dibencozide and without folic acid I found a good one.
    http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Children-s-Basic-Nutrients-180-Veggie-Caps/18435

    This reason I suggest this is because many people here are very sensitive to methylation and it would be a good idea to start slow. The components for methylation build up in your system over the course of days and weeks so if you start at a high dose you might feel fine for a few days or even a week or two, but then you'll start overmethylating and it might take a couple of days or even weeks before things settle down. Although the Neurological Health Formula that Rich recommneds has some things that Thorne's multi doesn't, Thorne's is cheaper, doesn't contain Folic Acid, and does contain active B vitamins. Keep in mind the values listed in the product description are for 6 capsules which is a good thing because they can be spaced throughout the day and there's also some evidence that the absorption rate of B vitamins increases for lower doses of B vitamins taken orally. Also, it allows people to start out with a very low dose of active folate that can be built up to higher levels if tolerated. The recommended daily dose of 6 capsules would provide exactly the amount of methylfolate and folinic acid that Rich recommends (200 of each). In addition to the non-active B-vitamins included in this multi, the amount of active B vitamins in one capsule are as follows:

    Vitamin B2 (as Riboflavin 5'-Phosphate [R5P]) - 0.55 mg
    Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxal 5'-Phosphate [P5P]) - 0.5 mg
    Folate (33.3 mcg as Calcium Folinate and 33.3 mcg as L-5-Methyl-tetrahydrofolic Acid, Glucosamine Salt)
    Total folate: 66.6 mcg
    Vitamin B12 (11.25 mcg as Adenosylcobalamin and 11.25 mcg as Methylcobalamin)
    Total B12: 22.5 mcg
    Laurel6123 likes this.
  18. Jaz

    Jaz

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    Hi Everyone !
    i'm very new to this forum and the topic of B12 in general and i discovered Fredd's protocol. May i ask what is the difference between this one and Fredd's ?
    I'm very confused...

    thank you
  19. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Hi Jaz and welcome to Phoenix Rising. I'm not too familiar with Fredd's protocol, but I know there are quite a few differences between the two. Whatever you decide to do be aware that are potentially serious risks involved when embarking on any methylation protocol so make sure you start slow and educate yourself about what's involved.

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