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Reverse Mitochondrial Damage 101

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Radio, Feb 11, 2014.

  1. Radio

    Radio *****

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    Mitochondria support is the first step in controlling cellular damage. The next step is addressing the root core contributing factors. We need to challenge ourselves and ask the the right questions before we can have full understanding of disease.
     
    Cheesus likes this.
  2. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

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    I had wondered about D-Ribose and dysbiosis, which is why I asked about it. I was on a candida diet for a while with no obvious benefit other than making me very sick at first (due to the oil of oregano). I also often get foamy urine which I have historically associated with dysbiosis but with no way to be sure (it is not proteinuria).

    Though I am not on the candida diet any longer, I do still avoid all processed sugars. However, I have been taking D-Ribose for a week and have seen noticeable energy improvements and that my sweat smells sweet. So I am trying to reconcile the fact that I am essentially drinking sugar and feeling a bit better with the fact that I avidly avoided all sugar for more than a year. It does seem to be getting through my gut at least, but whether it is simultaneously damaging is difficult to know.
     
    PhoenixDown likes this.
  3. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

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    I got a response from ARG. They said because it is a "proprietary" blend they refuse to give that information out :rolleyes:

    Doesn't matter anyway, I have my NT Factor Lipids Powder and am now on my second day.
     
  4. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Hip,

    if a short walk improved things the issues is likely to be improved Cortisol levels. As your body and immune system recover you will experience some 'healing shocks'. You are likely to experience several such cycles during your recovery. It's all a bit suck it and see whether you worsen because of healing shock, because your doses are too high, or just because some aspect of treatment is not right for you.

    Leo.
     
  5. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I have seen a couple of posts here talking about bad reactions to Ribose. At least one piece of research on Ribose supplementation in ME has shown that it lowers blood sugar, potentially causing hypoglycaemia, but only when first introduced. This could cause massive release of Epinephrine (adrenaline) thus causing your heart symptoms. Lighter symptoms might include the illusion of drunkenness, confusion the aftermath might include pain in the next and shoulders.

    This can be avoided by taking ribose after food containing carbohydrates.
     
  6. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    The only thing that concerns me about the NT Factor is that it contains phosphatidylserine. This is a phospholipid that is not found naturally in our bodies and can also lower cortisol.

    I know my reaction was rare, but taking PS gave me encephalitis which subsequently caused M.E.
     
  7. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Aerose,

    I am sorry to hear you had such awful experience with phosphatidylserine, I have not tried it personally but it is present in diet (most meats, large amount in white beans) and it present in cell walls. You are right however that it lowers Cortisol levels in some circumstances.

    Have you seen any research indicating how it does this?

    Leo
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It might be part of the recovery process, but the symptoms I got from 3 x 1.4 gram scoops of NT Factor were weird and quite unpleasant. I stopped taking NT Factor immediately, and will restart it again in a short while at a lower dose, perhaps just half a scoop per day.

    NT Factor made me feel bit spaced out and unable to focus properly, and I also found sounds and visual stimuli sort of strangely jolted and perturbed my mind, in a way that reminded me of the mild anxiety psychosis states I used to get years ago. I have not experienced these anxiety psychosis for a few years now, but anything that evokes these horrible anxiety psychosis states I treat with great caution.

    @Tammy also said she started experiencing weird/spacey symptoms from NT Factor, so it seems that this is not an uncommon side effect.


    I actually take 400 mg of phosphatidylserine daily, and find this helps lower my anxiety, and also has a mild antidepressant effect. I am not sure about my cortisol level, but since phosphatidylserine quite strongly inhibits cortisol, it may not be good for those with low cortisol. But I personally like phosphatidylserine.

    There is a lot of phosphatidylserine in the brain, by the way, and it is normally found in the body.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  9. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    @Hip
    It works well for many; most actually. I'm just repeating what my doctor told me. Also, it really honestly ruined my life so there are rare possibilities, but most people seem to be ok with it
     
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    One theory I have about this bad reaction experienced with NT Factor is that the lipids in NT Factor were damaged by the high state of oxidative stress thought to exist in ME/CFS. Dr Cheney thinks that ME/CFS involves a state of chronic oxygen toxicity.

    This oxidative stress in the body and brain may be oxidizing these phosphoglycolipids in NT Factor before they can get to work. I understand that some oxidized lipids can be toxic and neurotoxic.

    The remedy for this would be to take some good antioxidants at the same time as taking NT Factor, which should protect these lipids from oxidation. Such good antioxidants include:

    Vitamin E 400 IU
    Vitamin C 1000 mg
    Grape seed extract 500 mg
    Astaxanthin 12 mg
    Q10 200 mg
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
    Tammy, Radio and tdog333 like this.
  11. tdog333

    tdog333 Senior Member

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    Great idea hip! I would be cautious if the form of vitamin c is ascorbic acid. I know it can mess with the structure of some supplements like methylfolate and make them useless. I may just be over thinking it though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  12. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    Glutathione?
    NAC?
     
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    N-acetyl-cysteine has some use; I will add it to my now extended list below.

    The important thing is to use antioxidants that are able to cross the blood-brain barrier, and so get into the brain and provide protection there.

    It's also good to use antioxidants that have a long half life — days rather than minutes or hours — so that you get long term protection. NAC, ALA and vitamin C unfortunately have short half lives, so you would have to take these several times a day to maintain protection. On the other hand, antioxidants like astaxanthin, vitamin E and grape seed extract have long half lives in terms of days, so you can take these just once daily.

    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Some Antioxidants Which Cross the Blood-Brain Barrier:
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Astaxanthin 12 mg · · · · · Half life: 52 hours · Crosses BBB: Yes, easily
    Vitamin C 1000 mg · · · · · Half life: 30 mins· · Crosses BBB: Oxidized form does
    Vitamin E 400 mg· · · · · · Half life: 2 days · · Crosses BBB: Yes, to a degree
    Grape seed extract 500 mg · Half life: 3 days · · Crosses BBB: Yes
    Q10 200 mg· · · · · · · · · Half life: 1.4 days · Crosses BBB: Yes
    Fisetin 100 mg· · · · · · · Half life: 3 hours· · Crosses BBB: Yes
    Rutin 500 mg· · · · · · · · Half life: ?? days· · Crosses BBB: Possibly
    Lutein 10 mg· · · · · · · · Half life: 15 days· · Crosses BBB: Yes
    Zeaxanthin 4 mg · · · · · · Half life: 12 days· · Crosses BBB: Yes
    N-acetyl-carnitine 500 mg · Half life: 4 hours· · Crosses BBB: Yes, easily
    Alpha lipoic acid 200 mg· · Half life: 30 mins· · Crosses BBB: Yes, easily
    Lycopene 25 mg· · · · · · · Half life: 3 days · · Crosses BBB: Yes
    N-acetyl-cysteine 400 mg· · Half life: 2 hours· · Crosses BBB: Yes
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
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  14. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    So..................in general.......would it be unwise to take NT factor if you know you have low cortisol? I definitely have low cortisol.
     
  15. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    No idea of it's half life but ALC can cross the blood brain barrier and is an effective anti-oxidant.
    Obvious question here small half life means protection for less time, but does it also mean faster action?
     
  16. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Tammy,

    I would say 'caution needed' we don't know if it lowers Cortisol across the board or only because it produces calming hormones. As yet I have not seen any strong science indicating how or why it lowers Cortisol - hence any advice involves a bit of guess work.

    I would put it this way, if you have very low Cortisol I would be wary of using it. Otherwise it would be something you need to be wary of and keep an eye on. The science I personally know of is not strong enough for me to give you a firm yes or no.

    I am sorry I cannot give firmer advice,

    Leo
     
  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Thanks, I forgot about acetyl-L-carnitine (even though I take it everyday!). I have added this to my list.

    I don't think plasma elimination half-life affects how quickly the supplement is absorbed from the gut and into the blood stream.

    The half-life is useful to know if you want to work out how many times a day you need to take a supplement. If a supplement has a half-life say in the 4 to 6 hour range, you might want to take that supplement 3 times a day (once every 6 hours), to ensure that you always have adequate levels in the blood. But if the half life is say 12 hours, twice a day will suffice. And if the half-life is around 24 hours or longer, then once a day is fine.
     
  18. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Hip,

    you're right it's not about absorption from the gut. Plasma half-life refers to how long it takes for the amount in Plasma to reduce by half. So if you have a total blood volume of 1mg of VitC now and it's half life is 30mins you have half that amount (0.5mg) half an hour later, an hour later you have 0.25mg etc.

    What's far from straight forward about half lives is why its halving and there are three possible explanations:
    • it's gotten into cells hence is no longer in plasma but available for use (good)
    • it's been urinated from the system (bad)
    • it's done it's job and is spent.
    The whole business of half life with serum (usual) rather than intracellular measurements make assessing frequency of dosage a real problem. Some items are much more rapidly absorbed than others by cells, others are more efficiently absorbed by the bowels, others again are far too rapidly eliminated by the bladder. All in all this area of nutrition is a nightmare.

    A long half-life is not always good news.

    Leo
     
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @Leopardtail
    I think a substance only generally disappears from the body by being metabolized, by the liver for example, or eliminated by the kidneys or bowels.

    A long half life can be bad news if a drug has caused some bad side effects, and you just want it to leave your body. I had this once when I took thyroxine (T4) once for a specific experiment. It made me very agitated, but T4 has a half life of around 7 days, so it took me nearly a week to start getting back to normal!
     
  20. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    @Hip ,

    yes that's true (re elimination from the body). Excess is eliminated through the kidneys (mostly) and waste products (previously called 'spent') are eliminated through liver and then bowels. All three methods mentioned above do apply - what's less than easy to work out is how much via which channels.

    But this is not what serum half life means. It means removal of the substance from serum (not even from blood). Vit C is vital to life if the body had a half life and 30 mins we would be die very rapidly. Abscorbic Acid has an active transporter to get it into cells hence it disappears from serum rapidly but remains in cells/organs for use.

    Are you clear about the distinction between total body half life and serum half life?

    Leo
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014

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