Lipkin's Monster ME/CFS Study: Microbes, Immunity & Big Data
The Microbe Discovery Project outlines an ambitious new study by top researchers that has collected patient samples, but needs desperately funds to complete the work.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Rethinking childhood adversity in chronic fatigue syndrome

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Cheshire, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Cinders66

    Cinders66 Senior Member

    Messages:
    421
    Likes:
    1,817
    Whilst the point of the paper might have been to challenge the childhood adversity narrative I can not see how this type of research, in a situation of thousands languishing without effective treatment, was considered a good use of MRC funds as opposed to biomedical research which we know they are still turning down.

    Even if there is a connection, looking at the percentages it's a small one and what does establishing it or not really help with? I suspect those who have had tough childhoods and then get depression as welll as CFS will probably seek mental health support in their adulthood although it's questionable as to if that will have any impact on the physical ill health they now have, we as a country in the uk still have high levels of children's poverty which could be associated with adversity but no one really cares to do anything and adversity related to other events e.g. Parental death or abuse, all that could be improved is mental health support to kids which should be there anyway.

    I just don't really see what this has got to offer the ME population whether they tick these boxes or not. The end result in ME is that The body has got sick and is blighting our adulthood and it's that what especially in the UK so little is being invested in to rectify whilst we cost the state billions. .
     
    Joh, anni66, Luther Blissett and 3 others like this.
  2. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge plodder

    Messages:
    774
    Likes:
    3,526
    Very interesting thread thanks folks

    What I take away from this:

    This latest research undermines the BPS view about childhood trauma

    This is positive because when BPS try to use this narrative they can be challenged based on MRC funded research

    It is positive to see Julia Newtons name on this paper adds weight to the credibility, also good to see her undermining BPS narrative.

    I'm not sure what practical benefits there will be for patients unless they are aware of this research before undergoing ridiculous questions from GPs etc.

    I don't know enough about the pediatric cases but I guess there may be a little benefit in some cases if parenting is being challenged and put forward as causing/aggravating the child's ME to be able to say that's not what the latest research says?
     
    GreyOwl, Jan, ladycatlover and 13 others like this.
  3. char47

    char47 Senior Member

    Messages:
    128
    Likes:
    654
    Hi Woolie

    I am under that impression too because i'm sure i've read about it over the yrs. But i cant seem to find any proof/studies into it. You dont happen to have any links do you?
     
    Luther Blissett likes this.
  4. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member

    Messages:
    678
    Likes:
    786
    Scotland
    "Why did they bother to research this" studies need to be done because if they aren't people in power will continually say there is no proof - like the tories insisting that benefit reform and food bank usage are not connected.

    This paper is saying that ME is not associated with childhood adversity and that other papers that claim it does did not use the right set of patients.

    It is really important that we have papers like this because they are relatively cheap but have an instant effect. Multimillion pound studies may get us a treatment or work out what is actually wrong but these sort of easy to understand papers make it more likely that the multimillion pounds will be forthcoming.

    It is also vital to have evidence that results are confounded if people with depression are not excluded from trials. I have diabetes so I do not expect to be in a clinical trial because it would not be known if any result was because of my diabetes or my ME (not because I think people with depression cannot also have ME).

    We will find it hard to be heard if we just keep insisting that all these trials that say that adversity causes ME and suchlike are badly done, no matter how true it will feel like an attack on scientific integrity. Having a paper which gives an opposite result and a reason for that opposite result will work much better.

    Childhood adversity studies are used by the BPS's to reinforce that we have emotional problems so anything that refutes that works in our favour.
     
    Joh, Philipp, ukxmrv and 13 others like this.
  5. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,931
    Likes:
    14,572
    Well now that you ask, @char47, it just so happens I do!

    Childhood Adversity and Adult Chronic Disease by Gilbert et al (2002, American Journal of Preventive Medicine)

    This paper is a large population study (over 50,000 participants) and looked at all sorts of diseases, including asthma, stroke, heart disease, diabetes, as well as some more generic health outcome measures such as "disability" and fair to poor self-rated health.

    Participants had to say whether to not they had experienced 9 different types of adverse events, ranging from
    sexual and physical abuse, right through to parents having had a mental illness or having been separated/divorced.

    Higher adverse events scores were associated with greater odds of reporting fair/poor general health, disability, heart attack, asthma, stroke and diabetes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
    Joh, Philipp, ukxmrv and 4 others like this.
  6. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,931
    Likes:
    14,572
    @Mithriel, the trouble with this is that the next paper that comes along will very probably report a positive effect. This is because its very easy to obtain positive associations between illness and childhood adversity for all sorts of spurious reasons.

    What are we going to do then? Just ignore it and focus on the one with the negative results?

    So the better argument to make is that the whole enterprise is problematic.

    The paper I talked about in the post above suggests that, even if a study did find a relationship between CFS and childhood adversity, this would not tell us anything about the cause of CFS - not unless you want to also say that diabetes, asthma, heart disease and stroke all have a psychological cause too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
    Joh, Philipp, Orla and 5 others like this.
  7. char47

    char47 Senior Member

    Messages:
    128
    Likes:
    654
    thanks so much for that Woolie very useful,

    I wish 'they' would do a study into whether adverse childhood events increased risk for diseases that cannot be linked to behaviour - eg heart problems/stroke/T2 diabetes, can all be explained away by saying that the adversity made people less able to look after themselves -eg diet/exercise/smoking alcohol etc, rather than it being the adversity itself. (Although having asthma itself doesnt fall into that category, although i guess higher anxiety would make asthma worse). Because higher rates of trauma in people with many behaviourally affected conditions still makes it about the persons behaviour, & therefore cannot powerfully contradict the 'trauma > ME = needs psych treatment' narrative, because trauma > poor self care/lifestyle choices > stroke/heart disease/diabetes = needs psych treatment to prevent.

    The studies trying to link (& then extrapolate causation from that link) trauma with ME never use another illness as a control. It would be very interesting to compare rates of serious childhood adversity (ie abuse rather than 'mere' divorce) in MS for example, or some other neuro condition like MND. Surely the way trauma affects brain development would make one more susceptible to neuro illness in later life? And if the rates of CA are higher in all neuro/auto immune disease, then it would once & for all knock the ludicrous - 'ME stems from trauma & is therefore somatoform' nonsense, on it's head.

    I would like to see a study comparing rates of trauma - ie abuse, in well defined cohort of severe ME patients & people with MS, MND & RA. I think that would knock the nonsense on it's head. Of course it would be much better to spend that £$ on biomedical research, but given that we have no way currently to stop at least some psych studies being pursued, it'd be useful to actually prove that rates are no higher than in other neuro diseases & therefore cannot be taken to mean it has anything other than an organically mediated risk increase.
     
    Hutan, Woolie and Orla like this.
  8. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member

    Messages:
    678
    Likes:
    786
    Scotland
    What I mean is that having a published paper is needed to have any clout, then we are fighting in the same arena as the BPSs. I get very annoyed at having to do research just to refute stupid studies without proper methods or proper controls, but that is what we have and it is much easier (an acceptable to people who know nothing about ME) to quote a paper with the opposite view rather than talk about problems with the trials. That is too easily dismissed as "conspiracy theory" or equated with climate denial.

    When I was working with adults who had been sexually abused (in the 80s), I found it frustrating that all the literature spoke about emotional effects and mental health, but nothing about physical problems - not even pregnancy or STDs. When these papers started coming out I thought it would be a good thing but they seem to still be talking about emotional problems this time to push their agenda for emotional problems causing physical symptoms.

    I am sure that constant fear, physical violence and lack of proper sleep can interfere with the natural physical development of children but that research has not been done.
     
    Cheshire and Woolie like this.
  9. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,931
    Likes:
    14,572
    I think this is a very good point. I also suspect that psychological states have little direct effect on long-term physical health, but can indirectly affect it via our behaviour - as you say, people under stress might smoke more, sleep less, etc.

    But these relationships could also be largely artefactual too. The whole thing could be driven by a social class confound, or by biases in the way sick people recall their childhood.
     
    Joh, Cheshire, Hutan and 3 others like this.
  10. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,708
    Likes:
    28,266
    Joh likes this.
  11. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

    Messages:
    896
    Likes:
    2,896
    https://www.coyneoftherealm.com/blo...a-causing-physical-and-mental-health-problems - relevant.

    This goes onto the major problems with the ACA used in the above paper.

    As one example, it equates as identical a happy lifetime marriage of a 17 and 23 year old, with rape.

    Both score identically, and while either may be scarring experiences, without going into the details (which the ACA carefully does not) you simply have no data.

    Similarly
    Is this systematic lifelong abuse by a parent, or a sibling punching you once when you were 17?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page