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Results of Faecal Microbiology!

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Francelle, Mar 26, 2011.

  1. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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    Victoria, Australia
    Trying to do a crash course in understanding the faecal anaerobes & aerobes results I have. Gosh, Sarah Myhill has an enlightening website on the human bowel and its amazing structure and function. I never really knew its intricacies!

    OK. My results which are aberrant are:

    Anaerobes
    Bacteroides spp. - relative absence 1.72% (normal 90-95%)
    Prevotella sp. - overgrowth 11.48% (normal <10%)
    Porphyromonas sp. - overgrowth 51.65% (normal <10%)
    Eubacterium spp. - overgrowth 35.1% (normal <15%)
    Lactobacillus - undergrowth 0.00% (normal 0.5-1.5%)
    Bifidobacterium spp. 0.14% (normal 5-11%)
    Clostridium spp. 0.00% (normal 1-10%)
    Peptostreptococcus spp. 0.00% (normal 1-10%)

    Aerobes
    Coliforms E-coli 99.96% (normal 70-90%)

    Other Aerobes - Enterococcus, Streptococcus, Staphylococcus all normal
    Yeast - also normal.

    Wondering if anyone can shed some light on the implications of these? My main concern is the very low level of Bacteroides Fragilis which I gather may have the most health implications!
  2. Gamboa

    Gamboa Senior Member

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    Hi Francelle,

    It looks like you need to increase your Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium. You could do that hopefully by taking a good probiotic which includes both these groups of bacteria. By doing that you might help to create the right environment for the Bacteroides spp. to flourish. Have you also ruled out food allergies, sensitivities and intolerances?

    I too just got back a faecal analysis. Mine was done by Doctor's Data in the US. They quantified the bacteria by either NG (no growth) up to 4+ and divided the bacteria into 3 categories: expected/beneficial, commensal (imbalanced) flora and dysbiotic (pathogenic ) flora.

    Under the expected beneficial they listed :
    Bacteroides fragilis group
    Bifidobacterium spp
    E. coli (not mucoid or hemolytic)
    Lactobacillus spp.
    Enterococcus spp.
    Clostridium spp.

    Under the commensal (dysbiotic) group:
    Bacillus spp.
    hemolytic E. coli
    mucoid E. coli
    Pseudomonas aeruginosa
    alpha hemolytic strep.

    Under the dysbiotic flora (I didn't have any fortunately) :
    Salmonella
    Shigella
    Yersinia
    E. coli o157
    Clostridium difficile

    It is interesting in my analysis that they differentiated between non-hemolytic, hemolytic and mucoid strains of E.coli. It looks like in your analysis they lumped all E.coli together. They didn't explain the difference so I'll have to do some research about it.

    In the description of beneficial bacteria on my report they wrote: " Lactobacilli , bifidobacterium, clostridia, and enterococci secrete lactic acid as well as other acids including acetate, propionate, butyrate, and valerate. This secretion causes a subsequent decrease in intestinal pH, which is crucial in in preventing an enteric proliferation of microbial pathogens, including bacteria and yeast. Many GI pathogens thrive in alkaline environments (high pH). "

    In case you are wondering, my analysis was not good: I had no growth of good E.coli and Enteococcus spp., only 1+ of Bacteroides fragilis group, and 2+ for Bifidobacterium spp., Clostridium spp., and Bifidobacterium spp. Apparently you should have 3+ or 4+ for all of these good bacteria. In the bad bacteria section I had 1+ alpha hemolytic strep and mucoid E.col and 2+ Bacillus spp., hemolytic E. coli and Pseudomonas spp. I also had too much yeast.

    I also had a gluten sensitivity stool test done in which I found out I have a gluten sensitivity. They tested for fecal Anti-gliadin IgA. I scored 86 and a normal should be less than 10.

    A few weeks ago I went to an allergy MD who diagnosed me with a slew of food allergies (IgE by skin scratch method) including corn, nuts, oats and barley.

    I have no idea what I am going to eat now but at least I have some direction as to what I need to do to improve all my symptoms. My doctor has put me on a natural med. to eliminate yeast, digestive enzymes to aid digestion, a strong probiotic, a vitamin formula specifically made for me based on urinary organic acid analysis as well as a diet that eliminates all the foods that I can't tolerate. He said to expect it to take at least 4 months to really get results. Hope this works.

    I too would be interested in more info. on gut flora. From what I've read so far in the many threads on this forum and other places, a lot of the problems in ME/CFS stem from gut problems.
  3. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    De Meirleir finds that prevotella is correlated with cfs. I believe he treats it with bile salts, not sure.
  4. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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    Victoria, Australia
    Hi Gamboa you provided such a lot of information in your post and your analysis does seem to be more comprehensive than mine. I'll take some time to digest it - lol! This whole area of gut health is another tangent I am going to have to research and become a mini expert regarding, as we do!

    My report had quite a lot of other facts and figures but I just summarised the distribution percentages in my post. The report also made some suggestions regarding possible ways to improve the problems found in my analysis, such as probiotics......and yes Leaves, it does suggest supplementing "with Bile Salts to aid digestion and to suppress the pigmented anaerobes (eg. Prevotella and Porphyromonas)" which in turn (it seems) can help the Bacteroid Fragilis level to rise. At least that is my understanding of the report....pending having the doctor go through it with me.

    I have read somewhere else that when the Bacteroids level is absent or extremely low it is/may not be possible for the level to rise regardless of management....and for some people especially those with raised Clostridium Difficile, faecal transplants are being done with success.

    A couple of years ago I developed Gastroparesis (severe gastric dysmotility) and I wonder how much of it could be related to all of this other gut stuff???

    Wondering too, how much would a regular Gastroenterologist (GI Professor) know about this faecal microbiology area or is it very fringe and not generally accepted in the mainstream? In addition to discussing this with the M.E./CFS expert doctor who ordered these tests, I am considering discussing the results with my GI specialist who I see for Gastroparesis!! Pointless or not?
  5. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Not sure if this is helpful, but here are 2 links which state that Eubacterium and E Coli are both d-lactate producers. I spoke to you in a pm regarding d-lactate, a while ago.

    This first one states "There are other enterobacteria that produce d-lactic acid, examples being Eubacteria....."

    http://www.cybermed.it/cybermedpdf/Connolly D-lactate 04 .pdf

    This one states "Various pathogenic bacteria produce D-lactate, including Bacteroides fragilis, Escherichia coli, Klebsiella pneumonia, and Staphylococcus aureus"

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/7/1619.full

    Glynis
  6. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    Is there a way to decrease e.coli and is there a way to know which form of e.coli is present? There are about 200 forms of e.coli bacteria, some good, many bad. What is the sense of making an analysis if you cannot differentiate between good and bad? Most tests unfortunately don't differentiate.
  7. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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    Victoria, Australia
    I guess virulence or pathogenicity of the E-Coli strain is usually reflected in the level of acute illness which follows as a general rule of thumb, but then, what would I know - I'm no Escherichia Coli expert?

    Truely I have no idea why a singular E-Coli interpretation would have been made on my results. Perhaps I could ask them when I have my consultation!
  8. Gamboa

    Gamboa Senior Member

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    HI Francelle,

    Up until 6 years ago I worked in a hospital microbiology laboratory (for 15 years). We only ever looked for the known pathogenic bacteria in a stool specimen( such as Salmonella, Shigella) and the final report we issued would either be " no pathogens detected" (and we listed the pathogenic stool bacteria ), or, if we found a pathogen, we reported it's presence. The medical microbiologists and infection disease physicians were adamant that we not report presence or absence of anything else. We would get stool specimens that grew heavy, pure yeast or pure Pseudomonas aeruginosa yet we would not be able to report it. None of the doctors believed in the whole "yeast problems" that naturopathic doctors would diagnose. I and my colleagues had many an argument with them over the reporting or not reporting of unusual stool cultures. (One of these doctors also didn't believe in CFS or Fibromyalgia . I had many a discussion of this prior to becoming ill with it myself.)

    We also did not differentiate between mucoid, hemolytic and non-hemolytic E.coli. We just looked for the pathogenic strain, E.coli O157. I'll have to look this E.coli stuff up.

    I am still friends with my past co-workers and found that things are still the same in the Micro. lab. Hopefully in the next few weeks, if I feel OK, I plan to visit the lab and talk to some of the ID and micro. docs to see what they think about all this.

    The docs in Australia might be better and have a knowledge of what constitutes a healthy intestinal flora. Aren't they doing faecal transplants there? I had to send my specimens to the USA for testing since there was no lab in Canada (according to my doctor) that does this type of faecal analysis.
  9. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    The above was posted on another thread; I thought it was worthwhile to copy and paste it here. I would add that Catseye, the last I heard, had mostly recovered from her years of debilitating illness by healing her gut.
  10. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Yes, I've heard that too. I wish she would stop by and make a special guest appearance to tell her story of recovery.
  11. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Newcastle upon Tyne UK
  12. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Newcastle upon Tyne UK
    Hi Gamboa,

    Thank you for your post about your work in a hospital lab. I remember reading this when I was researching d-lactic acid producing bacteria, that path labs do not test for an overgrowth of certain bacteria, if they are not considered pathogenic, such as lactobacili, which are d-lactic producers.

    Glynis
  13. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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    Victoria, Australia
    Yes thankyou Gamboa for your post. Very interesting and how closed minded of doctors to not want to know the full picture in their role as advocates for their patients? The truth is, it was probably outside of their sphere of knowledge and therefore they felt inadequate to treat whatever it was!! Grrrr!

    My test was done as part of an M.E./CFS study looking for potential biomarkers for diagnosis. It was done by Dr Henry Butt at the Bio21 Institute from the University of Melbourne. This guy is pretty up there with this type of testing, so all I can imagine is that he didn't consider it necessary to include the range of E-coli bugs specifically at this time. I think they are also looking hard at the d-lactate area as well, so hopefully they are not blinkered to other realities!!!

    In terms of trying to heal the gut, apart from having severe Gastroparesis and Oesophageal Dysmotility I guess I'm only just finding that there perhaps is something more fundamentally wrong with my gut (kicking and screaming) after all. A step at a time and I may get to having a healed gut too. It gives me cause for hope........

    ......which reiterates the necessity of testing, testing, testing for these things. The poor people in the UK don't get past first base once they have a diagnosis of M.E. How can they ever get to know which fundamental systems are malfunctioning which may be causative for their M.E.? Hopefully research like this may reveal patterns of pathophysiology which best practice will demand to be incorporated into patient's investigations and that the UK will eventually get to accept the fact they too have to get on board!
  14. busybee

    busybee Senior Member

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