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Researchers’ discovery may explain difficulty in treating Lyme disease (new treatments discussed)

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
A single -case report; I was treated during a year with pulsed Doxycycline and Azithromycin which had some effect on my Neuroborreliosis with all the typical symptoms. When I tried to stop the treatment I got much worse, but it didn´t cure me either. A Westernblot in late October was strongly positive (8 bands and 16 points) and the IgM and IgG were slowly increasing although the treatment. It´s not only in rhesus monkeys that Lyme bacterias might persist...

Since February I have had IV antibiotics for 12 weeks, which ended 10 days ago and I am now feeling better, crossed fingers, than I did for years. It is a medical scandal how Lyme is denied, particularly late stage Lyme, among too many doctors. I have been fighting hard, like many of you do, to get proper treatment. I also learnt that there are many doctors in my country who well knows how to treat but they do not dare to, except for themselves or their family members.

Hi Helen, always good to hear from someone improving. I hope you do your best to build on those gains. You can't let your guard down with this one. LLMD's like Horowitz say 99% of patients relapse without further treatment. And it might not work out as well the next time around, actually it almost certainly wouldn't; not with the same drug anyway. A good way to go if you're a 6 on ten or better is with herbs such as Buhner or Cowden use, on top of continued detox and rebuilding, of course.

Keep us posted.
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
@Hip, a doctor is going to get in a world of shit for treating with antibiotics in most states if the standard treatment has already been administered and he doesn't have a positive PCR to back himself up. Treatment for Chronic Lyme doesn't exist anywhere in Canada.

It is a bit hard to believe you're not being disingenuous with much of what you've written on this thread. But I've never known you to play games and give you the benefit of the doubt.;)
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,308
Location
Ashland, Oregon
It makes no sense to me that doctors would be investigated by state medical boards for prescribing antibiotics, when ME/CFS doctors have the freedom to experimentally prescribe all sorts of drugs.

@Hip, I have a book by Bryon Rosner in which he goes into great detail about how he recovered from Lyme, with Rife therapy being an integral part of his recovery. He relates in his book how a Lyme patient had been seeing a doctor for an extended period of time. When the patient heard about the potential of Rife to help him, he asked his doctor, whom he had come to trust, what he thought of it.

The doctor immediately reached into a file and pulled out extensive information about Rife therapy and treatment. When asked why he hadn't brought it to his attention earlier, he said it would have landed him in hot water with the medical authorities [State authorities if I remember correctly]. Apparently, if the patient brought up a "non-standard" treatment first, the doctor then had "license" to share what he knew on the topic, and to give advice on its merits.

This is just one example. When you consider the 50 different state medical boards, and the often complex and dysfunctional politics connected with each one, it becomes pretty easy to realize how doctors going just a smidgen out of the ordinary, usual, and acceptable medical practices can quickly find themselves battling for their professional lives. Power politics is alive and well in the medical community, and many alternative minded MDs have paid a dear price for their convictions and ethics while trying to do the best by their patients.
 
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valentinelynx

Senior Member
Messages
1,310
Location
Tucson
It makes no sense to me that doctors would be investigated by state medical boards for prescribing antibiotics, when ME/CFS doctors have the freedom to experimentally prescribe all sorts of drugs.

From "http://www.lymemd.blogspot.com" posting on Thursday May 7, 2015:

"Please read: I need your help.

I have been writing this BLOG since 2008. It has been widely read with over 1.2 million page views. I hope it has been helpful.

I have intentionally tried to keep this BLOG non-political. But alas, Lyme is a political disease and this is an inescapable fact.

I am in trouble now and asking for help.

I have been investigated by the medical Board 3 times since 2008. The first two investigations were dropped. I am no longer under investigation; I have been charged by the Medical Board of Maryland with serious violations.

The last investigation was initiated by a complaint from a major insurance company with which I previously participated with, 3 years ago.

A number of patient charts were reviewed and sent to "peer review." My reviewers were IDSA infectious disease doctors. One of the reviewers is a well known Johns Hopkins faculty member -- well known to be on a mission to stamp out doctors such as myself.

I am charged with violating the standard of care for each of 6 patient charts evaluated. In the charges ILADS' views are entirely nullified; the standard of care is solely based on IDSA guidelines.

The charges against me are serious. I face prosecution by the Attorney General's office of the State of Maryland at the behest of the Medical Board. The Board has informed me that the charges are public; the details are available for anyone to read.

The penalties may be wide ranging and may include suspension of my license to practice medicine.

I am asking that current patients and former patients of mine to write me a letter of support describing their experiences with the medical system and their experiences with care I provided for them. For now only send these letters to me, by email or snail mail.

Thank you for your support.

Daniel Jaller, M.D.
15245 Shady Grove Road
Suite 315
Rockville, MD 20850

Paradigmmedicine@ gmail.com

Daniel Jaller, aka Lymemd."
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Are you sure about that? If the CDC says post-lyme disease syndrome exists, how can you be prosecuted for treating a recognized disease? What is the legal basis of the prosecution? There must be more to it that that. Possibly they were bending certain medical insurance coverage rules?
The CDC is pretty adamant that the infection does not remain. Ergo the claim is that anyone treating PTLD patients with antibiotics is basically guilty of malpractice.
 

paolo

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Italy
Sure, it is impossible to say if the patient has spirochetes in his body or not, but even if they do have these spirochetes in the body, that unfortunately does not prove that the spirochetes are causing the symptoms of chronic Lyme. The spirochetes could be there, but not causing any symptoms.

The same situation is true in ME/CFS: many ME/CFS patients have been shown to have chronic enterovirus infections, but that does not prove that enterovirus is the cause of ME/CFS. It takes a lot more work to prove these things.

Now myself I think that a chronic spirochete infection is the most likely explanation for the chronic Lyme. We know that the spirochete infection of syphilis can cause chronic infection and long term neurological and psychological symptoms, so this suggests Borrelia may also be able to do this. However, until we can prove this, it unfortunately remains just one of several theories of what causes chronic Lyme. A lot more work needs to be done to see if it can be proved that Borrelia causes chronic Lyme.

Yes, Hip. This is the core of the debate, and the central issue for us, who are struggling with Chronic Lyme. You can't say that the spirochetes are still there, but you can't say that they are gone (even after one month of antibiotics) either. This is the bottom line.

The problem is that if a physician says -without scientific basis- that after a month of antibiotics your infection has gone, he doesn't need to prove his sentence. On the other hand, if a physician states that the infection is still there and he tries with other courses of antibiotics, he is considred a criminal.

Since some studies (see Donta's work about long term thetracycline and clarithromycine) suggest that very long term antibiotics may be curative in Chronic Lyme, this suggests that the infection is still there for at least some of the patients.

The name itself -Post Lyme disease- implies that the infection is no longer there. This is a misleading name. The other name -Chronic Lyme- is not accepted by most of the physicians; and is refused by IDSA.

Donta suggests a trial with antibiotics also for CFS patients, as they may be seronegative Chronic Lyme. He says that a third of his Chronic Lyme patients are seronegative (he makes a clinical diagnosis in people who would be classified as having CFS by other physicians) and they still respond to long term antibiotics.

Please read the following work by Sam Donta, in orther to introduce yourself to the world of Chronic Lyme:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3520031/

You can also visit the website of Columbia University, where you can find a review of what is known about chronic infection by Borrelia burgdorferi:

http://www.columbia-lyme.org/
 
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sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
Thank you for your support.

You can count on it, if only in spirit from this remove.

By chance I watched the documentary film Under Our Skin last night. The treatment of doctors working to help people with suspected chronic Lyme in the USA is dismaying. It was impossible to watch the footage of some of those hearings without the phrase 'witch hunt' coming to mind.

I was especially struck by the similarity of what's happening there in regard to Lyme treatment and what's happening in the UK with me/cfs: a small group of self-appointed gatekeepers of 'truth' who are effectively running the show. They formulate national policy, they cite their own and their close colleagues' work as the "best available science", they undermine and marginalise anyone who disagrees, and they have got themselves into positions from which they can effectively police their guidelines and use their influence with medical boards to attack and destroy anyone who dares to step outside them.

In fact, it's not just similar to me/cfs in the UK. Change the names, the places, the faces, it's the same damned story.

We now have almost no one in the UK daring to style themselves as an me/cfs specialist (except those officially appointed ones who are fully signed up to the psychogenic programme). Almost the only one of note is Wales' Sarah Myhill, who has of course previously found herself up before a disciplinary board and (I think) deprived of her license to prescribe for a period. She ultimately prevailed, in no small part due to overwhelming patient support, but her story is enough to discourage any young doctor from committing themselves to such a precarious career path.

I hope you get the same sort of patient endorsement she did, Daniel. Good luck to you.

[p.s. @Valentijn and anyone else who knows this forum so well. Is there a media section on the forum? If not, why not? I was looking for a thread on Under Our Skin and can't find one specifically dedicated to it, which seems like an omission. Wouldn't a dedicated media section be a useful resource? Apologies if I'm missing the obvious]
 
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sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
Yes, Hip. This is the core of the debate, and the central issue for us, who are struggling with Chronic Lyme. You can't say that the spirochetes are still there, but you can't say that they are gone (even after one month of antibiotics) either. This is the bottom line.

Hi @paolo - Can you expand a little more on why this is not possible? Or am I misunderstanding the issue?

I'm aware that the Elispot test is not considered entirely reliable, but my assumption was that Lyme doctors do not rely on a single test for diagnosis. Rather they run a battery of tests, including many for inflammation markers characteristic of infection, cytokines, T-cells, lymphocytes etc. and look for patterns of test results, combined with symptom arrays, before making a clinical diagnosis. They then undertake empirical treatment with abx in search of improvement and diagnostic confirmation.

I realise that's not quite the same thing as being able to say categorically "here be spirochetes", but isn't it, as my Canadian partner likes to say, close enough for government work?

Feel free to school me (it's what I'm here for).
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
[p.s. @Valentijn and anyone else who knows this forum so well. Is there a media section on the forum? If not, why not? I was looking for a thread on Under Our Skin and can't find one specifically dedicated to it, which seems like an omission. Wouldn't a dedicated media section be a useful resource? Apologies if I'm missing the obvious]
Well, there's the "ME Health News and Research" subforum, and the Advocacy subforums. I'd expect most projects to be in the Advocacy section while underway, then in the News and Research section once they get picked up by the media.
 

sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
Well, there's the "ME Health News and Research" subforum, and the Advocacy subforums. I'd expect most projects to be in the Advocacy section while underway, then in the News and Research section once they get picked up by the media.

Thanks Valentijn. News and Research doesn't really feel like it covers all the bases. A documentary feature doesn't quite fit. And media coverage is often negative, so doesn't belong in Advocacy. I still think there's a gap there. Does the site have a 'suggestions box' or should I use to Contact area to suggest something?
 

paolo

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Italy
Hi @paolo - Can you expand a little more on why this is not possible? Or am I misunderstanding the issue?

If we consider serology, we know that some patients are seronegative, so a negative serology can't rule out a Borrelia burgdorferi infection. On the other hand serology is not reliable in monitoring the infection, because IgG level continue to be high for months or years after the infection itself is cleared.

If we consider PCR (the direct search for B burgdorferi DNA/RNA) in periferic blood, we have that the sensitivity of this test is very low, about 21% in the first stage of infection, much less with chronic infection.

If we consider CD 3- CD 57+, a sub group of Natural Killer cells, some studies say that this population is lower in Chronic Lyme Disease (Stricker and Winger, 2001, 2003; Stricker et al., 2002). But a more recent study found no differencies between Lyme patients and healty controls (Marques et al., 2009). So this parameter is not a verified biomarker.

Tests like LTT Melisa and LTT Elispot are intersting and largley used in Germany, but I'm unable to say if they are reliable or not. There are some studies about them, but I guess that these tests are to be considered sperimental.

For more valuable informations about testing you can read the following pages, from the Columbia University website:

http://www.columbia-lyme.org/patients/ld_lab_test.html
http://www.columbia-lyme.org/patients/ld_spinal_fluid.html
http://www.columbia-lyme.org/patients/ld_other_test.html
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
[p.s. @Valentijn and anyone else who knows this forum so well. Is there a media section on the forum? If not, why not? I was looking for a thread on Under Our Skin and can't find one specifically dedicated to it, which seems like an omission. Wouldn't a dedicated media section be a useful resource? Apologies if I'm missing the obvious]

@sarah darwins
If a dedicated thread for the film "Under Our Skin" were to exist, the expectation would that it would be placed in the "Lyme and Co-Infections" forum.

As we are a website specifically aimed at the disease ME/CFS, our forums and sub-forums are mostly meant to have discussions limited to ME/CFS.

Forums where other illnesses/research/issues can be discussed, hopefully with all having some relevance to ME/CFS are:

  • Other Health News and Research
  • Alternative, Co-existing or Missed Diagnoses -- which includes the Lyme forum
Most of the media events related to ME/CFS go in the news section.

If we had a 'Media' subforum, it would still have to be dedicated to ME/CFS. It really muddies the waters when members are using the dedicated ME/CFS forums to discuss other illnesses. Therefore, we prefer members to use the Lyme forum to post Lyme-related information.

I hope that answers your question.

Thank you.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
@sarah darwins , I hope you don't mind if I take a stab at the question you posed to paolo since I have a little experience with diagnostics.

You understand the distinction between sensitivity and specificity. Sensitivity refers back to the true positive rate, or the portion of actual positives that is picked up. Specificity refers to the true negative rate. The statistics get pretty rough, fast, at least they do for me. But suffice it to say in an ideal world, a perfect test would boast 100% sensitivity and 100% specificity. I actually ignore the stats and just embrace specificity to mean it's SPECIFIC to a given pathogen, and sensitivity to the test's ability to sweep like sonar and determine if an antibody is present. I'm sure there are immunologists cringing out there...

The gold standard in infectious testing is the culture test, where you are able to actually identify the pathogen directly, through serum or CSF fluid or blood. This is ideal

There are some diseases where capturing the pathogen directly has proven very difficult, if not impossible. A famous example is Syphilis.

In such cases, frequently, the tests revert to a hunt for antibodies. This is where sensitivity/specificity come into play. The ability of a test to register high values determines its usefulness.

Ok, how is this relevant to Lyme? Although it is possible to isolate the Borrelia Burgdorferi spirochete - the agent of Lyme - and culture it, that is a very difficult and expensive thing to do, except when biopsing the bull's eye rash, i.e., Eythema Migrans. It can be done outside of the rash, but it is very rare, and for all intents and purposes, it isn't done. Why? The Bb spirochetes don't care much for blood (ironic since their carriers, ticks, feast on blood). Upon entering a human, they flee the blood for safer harbors like organs and joints and tissues.

Because of this, once the bull's eye rash has faded - or the ACA in Europe, which typically occurs later in the disease - testing for Lyme becomes a hunt for signs, principally signs for antibodies.

The controversy centers around a dispute about the accuracy of antibody testing. The IDSA says tests like the ELISA and Western Blot are highly effective for testing for Lyme, and when used in tandem (the CDC's Two-Tier Testing), those two tests are really very very good relative to both sensitivity and specificity.

Many doctors and researchers and patients disagree. They can and do point to stats which suggest a more dismal performance. Worse, they suggest the 2T test actually presents artificial barriers to finding patients and getting them diagnosed and, accordingly, treated. Somewhat oddly, this is very important in Lyme, this ability to get a diagnosis, because there are rules strangely specific to Lyme that direct doctors away from treatment without a positive test in hand.

The first part of the 2T is the ELISA, and groups who oppose it say its efficacy is only slightly better than 50 to 60% - around the same as a flip of a coin. So in theory, about half of the patients tested have results which may be wrong. This problem is compounded by the fact that the Western Blot, which is better than the ELISA, but still is limited, literally cannot be used on a patient in many States in the US if that patient tested negative on the ELISA.

There are even more rules, many rooted in general biological immune principals that some claim do not apply to Lyme. For instance - and Dr. Edwards can correct me if I err here - a body's first line of immune defenses is its IgM's. These are what can be responsible for generating fevers, etc. They typically only hang around for a few weeks, when they are relieved by IgG's. IgG's do mop up duty, but IgG's can stay around for long, almost indefinite periods - even for the rest of the body's life.

So, one of the rules in Lymeland is that if a patient tests IgM positive say within 60 days of an EM, then that patient can be said to have tested positive for exposure to Lyme. But if that patient should test IgM positive after 60 days, and not IgG positive, according to mainstream Lyme diagnostic protocol, that's a false reading. That's a false positive. And, for most other diseases, this distinction may hold true. But for Lyme, it may not. The reason is the outer surface of the Lyme spirochete has proteins and antigens. It is these that our antibodies react to. But with Lyme, the outer surface proteins are constantly shifting. In effect, when Lyme first introduces itself to the body, it wears a certain face, and all the body's IgM's attack that face. And as that is happening, many spirochetes are changing their appearance, presenting with new outer surface proteins. The body thinks it's a different infection because it doesn't recognize the face, so it sends in a new wave of antibodies. This process of constantly generating an IgM response can be repeated over and over and over again. It is because of this process - which the IDSA argues doesn't happen in Lyme -that some Lyme patients only present with positive IgM's.

Wow. I've written a lot but barely scratched the surface. Perhaps links are the better way to go. :)

Ok, I will try to wrap up. This is only the tip of the iceberg. See, there are like 35 Lyme Species worldwide, and within each Species are many strains. Could be well over a hundred strains out there. Now, some of those Species don't seem to cause illness in humans. Enough do however, and this generates some problems because tests for one Species may not be able to pick up another Species. Same holds true even down to strains. So entire arsenals of test may be useless if they are being used against the wrong Species/strain.

This dilemma is a worrisome one throughout Lymeland.

Ok, other tests like PCR and, Antibody Index in CSF exams, are very specific, but not very sensitive. The tradeoff with tests like these is that if you test positive, Great!, you have more proof for your argument you have Lyme (you will need it). But if you test negative, well, that value doesn't necessarily mean you don't have Lyme. It may just mean that the test wasn't sensitive enough to find the antibody at the time it was administered.

So, to wrap up, many believe most Lyme tests suck, and according to those individuals it's hard to get good treatment, fast or long enough, due in large measure to those testing inadequacies.

I am going to stop here because I've squandered my word allocation for the morning.
 
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Helen

Senior Member
Messages
2,243
Hi Helen, always good to hear from someone improving. I hope you do your best to build on those gains. You can't let your guard down with this one. LLMD's like Horowitz say 99% of patients relapse without further treatment. And it might not work out as well the next time around, actually it almost certainly wouldn't; not with the same drug anyway. A good way to go if you're a 6 on ten or better is with herbs such as Buhner or Cowden use, on top of continued detox and rebuilding, of course.

Keep us posted.

Thanks for your kind advice. I am lucky to be a patient of KDM so I am confident that he will continue to treat the immune defense and also give me a long term guard against new spirochetes that could pop up again. Beside the IV abx that I had, I also get IM gammaglobulin, LDN and two kinds of oral antibiotics for some months to treat a co-infection. At the moment I don´t think many bugs would survive in my body although I am studying Buhner´s protocol , and Cowden is next. I also read Horowitz´s book and I assume he is right in his precautions.
 

sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
@paolo , @duncan - wow. Thank you. Two brilliant responses. It's going to take me some time to digest and try to understand all that, but I'm determined to do it. I recently underwent testing with Dr de Meirleir in Belgium (70 or so tests in all) and I want to be as well-informed as I can be when I go back to see him for interpretation in August. Some of the tests he runs are clearly Lyme-oriented, so your responses will be a huge help. Thank you.

@Kina - Thank you. And understood. I can see why you have to keep a tight rein on forum proliferation and cross-contamination. :)
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
@sarah darwins

The first part of the 2T is the ELISA, and groups who oppose it say its efficacy is only slightly better than 50 to 60% - around the same as a flip of a coin. So in theory, about half of the patients tested have results which may be wrong. This problem is compounded by the fact that the Western Blot, which is better than the ELISA, but still is limited, literally cannot be used on a patient in many States in the US if that patient tested negative on the ELISA.

There are even more rules, many rooted in general biological immune principals that some claim do not apply to Lyme. For instance - and Dr. Edwards can correct me if I err here - a body's first line of immune defenses is its IgM.s. These are what can be responsible for generating fevers etcs. They typically only hang around for a few weeks, when they are relieved by IgG's. IgG,s do mop up duty, but IgG's can stay around for long, almost indefinite periods - even for the rest of the body's life.

So, one of the rules in Lymeland is that if a patient tests IgM positive say within 60 days of an EM, then that patient can be said to have tested positive for exposure to Lyme. But if that patient should test IgM positive after 60 days, and not IgG positive, according to mainstream Lyme diagnostic protocol, that's a false reading. That's a false positive.

Great post for the uninitiated!
@sarah darwins, I'll just add that even if your western blot lights up like a Christmas tree, positive on IgM and IgG (supposedly positive by CDC standards), like mine did, you're still not going to get treatment in most states and certainly not in Canada, if you had a negative ELISA test. Your IDSA 'associate' then proceeds to impugn the integrity of the world-class lab that turned up the unequivocal positive and sends a letter to your GP indicating you would probably be better served by a psychologist. That same douchebag also looked at my positive babesia FISH test, which identifies the actual pathogen in the blood by staining and observation, and said that the lab was giving people what they wanted to hear, and that's why they're so popular.

It's not science. It's deliberately set up to deny persistent infection and the majority of doctors go along with it. It's not limited to Lyme either, the same thing happens with PANDAS. People lucky enough to have figured out their OCD and horrible neurological symptoms are caused by an immune reaction to strep are liable to be denied long-term antibiotics, even when it can be shown that symptoms return when the patient goes off treatment. Sometimes they can culture the bacteria and sometimes not. It's interesting, too, that Mady Hornig holds PANDAS up as a good model for ME/CFS. However it's the hit and run theory that denies persistent infection.
http://simmaronresearch.com/2013/03/hornig/

Or how about the thread, here, discussing the topic of infection in ME/CFS? We often turn up positive by serological tests to all sorts of pathogens such as herpes 4,5,6,7 infections, Cpn, enteroviruses, toxoplasmosis etc. And, again, sometimes they're cultured, but apparently the conservative interpretation can be used if it meets one's agenda, despite the work of Drs Chia, Montoya, Peterson, Cheney, Lerner, and so on. HIV patients will be treated for these infections because they're 'immune compromised' but for some strange reason this doesn't carry over to Lyme and ME/CFS, despite science that suggests we, too, are immune compromised.
 
Messages
180
Would be interesting to see what the protocol they used was. From what I have seen a lot of doctors treating late-stage Lyme are already employing pulsed/cycled antibiotic regimens.

I am another KDM patient, just about to finish the IV antibiotic phase. Difficult to characterise the experience, on the days I feel better I feel somewhat better than before, on the days I feel worse I feel significantly worse than before. A bit too erratic to make any judgement call at the moment, perhaps in part due to the fact I have been on antibiotics for over three months, not exactly what I would call earth-shattering results however. I don't want to demotivate others because there are cases where people have recovered in the real sense of the word, but I'm not convinced that even if there is persistence that a recovery is necessarily possible after the disease has progressed past a certain stage, there is clearly some degree of irreversible damage in many cases. Treating the persistence may therefore be a necessary but insufficient step, it's like goodbye Lyme city...welcome you are now entering ME/CFSville.

Interestingly KDM wanted me to take Plaquenil (Hydroxychloroquine), since I was eager to attack all forms at once and couldn't be bothered to wait around. Not sure why he opts for that over the usual candidates Flagyl/Tindamax, but that drug is the work of the devil I am telling you, completely wiped me out. Not sure if it was some interaction or side effect or it was actually doing its job and I just couldn't handle it, but will wait to see what KDM thinks should happen next, presumably after retests.

I find myself still caught in the middle, unsure of which side to trust. Studies like this suggest the science is starting to shift towards the ILADS view but I'm also highly doubtful that many people diagnosing chronic Lyme and dishing out long-term antibiotics are being as scrupulous as they should be.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
It is a bit hard to believe you're not being disingenuous with much of what you've written on this thread.

I am not being disingenuous; I am doing what I often do on this forum when I see people making claims without presenting adequate evidence: being a bit skeptical. Usually this results in people providing better evidence, and/or clarifying their arguments.

In a sense though I am just playing devil's advocate, because given the experience of insurance company meddling in the ME/CFS world, I don't find it difficult to believe that they may have also been meddling with the Lyme world too. However, there needs to be better evidence provided for this meddling, if it exists.


The CDC is pretty adamant that the infection does not remain. Ergo the claim is that anyone treating PTLD patients with antibiotics is basically guilty of malpractice.

If you look at the CDC's post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome webpage, you see that they say:
Recent animal studies have given rise to questions that require further research. Clinical studies are ongoing to determine the cause of PTLDS in humans.

Then at the bottom of that webpage, the CDC cite animal studies in which Borrelia have been found to remain even after antibiotic treatment, such as this study:

Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi in rhesus macaques following antibiotic treatment of disseminated infection

So it looks like they are hedging their bets.


The name itself -Post Lyme disease- implies that the infection is no longer there. This is a misleading name.

The official CDC name is post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome. This name does not preclude the possibility that the chronic symptoms are due to an ongoing infection.
 

Helen

Senior Member
Messages
2,243
@Vitalic, thanks for sharing. I couldn´t get my last infusion of Azitromax/-mycin as I was too bad that day but today, 2 weeks later I am in a much better condition than I had been in for two years. What I would like to say is that if you too is on Azithromycin you hopefully soon will fell much better. You might already know that the half-life for Azitro is as long as it stays for two weeks after an intake and I assume an infusion. Hope that you soon will report some positive news!
 
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