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researcher receives $1.5 million NIH grant to evaluate daily activity patterns and heart rate...

Groggy Doggy

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Messages
1,130
@JayS

Thanks for your detailed posting. You made many good points. I had never heard of Friedberg before, he must be invisible some how, but maybe that's a good thing. Sounds like it's going to be a long and tough battle to get things resolved.

I am feeling tired and loopy, maybe I need some coffee. So if you don't mind my humour, maybe we need to send in Jon Snow on our behalf to the CDC and the NIH.

GD :dog:
 

JayS

Senior Member
Messages
195
There are times where I think what's needed more is Ramsay Bolton.

Playing along, if I were to characterize Fred Friedberg...I'm thinking Mace Tyrell.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
I think this is a study on heart-rate based Pacing, which I personally think might be helpful. It is obviously not a cure, but using a heart-rate monitor to pace activities better has helped me, and there seem to be a lot of other patients doing so as well.
At least they are collecting data which will show that we are not "normal."
Activity minitor....I hope they dont use the fitbit as its flaw to accurately capture fast spikes in heart rate. Missing spikes of up to 20 BPM.
I certainly hope they will avoid that. I'd think they would use medical grade equipment.
study sounds a bit wishy-washy. could be (a lot) better. could be (a lot) worse.
I personally monitor my HR 24/7 and the data is saved in files. This is helpful to me as it shows patterns and unlikely activities that raise my HR. My take is that this is just a data collecting study that will make it easier to get more in-depth studies funded.
 

JayS

Senior Member
Messages
195
Well, I do want to clarify, on Friedberg--I don't hate the guy. He's nominally on 'our side.' But there's always been a bit too much 'go along to get along' for me personally. I don't expect every 'friendly' researcher to have the fire of someone like Jose Montoya (or Judy Mikovits), but...I have 100% confidence that Maureen Hanson knows and understands this disease, and is careful to avoid harmful discussion. Friedberg is one among many who, on occasion, says the right things about exercise, yet has not exactly been vigilant in any effort to firmly explain just how damaging it can be to us (in some cases I do believe he's gone along with the line that it 'can' be helpful, actually, though I'd have to go back & look it up). So it's hard to view something like this in much of a positive light, unfortunately.
 

Groggy Doggy

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1,130
Well, I do want to clarify, on Friedberg--I don't hate the guy. He's nominally on 'our side.' But there's always been a bit too much 'go along to get along' for me personally. I don't expect every 'friendly' researcher to have the fire of someone like Jose Montoya (or Judy Mikovits), but...I have 100% confidence that Maureen Hanson knows and understands this disease, and is careful to avoid harmful discussion. Friedberg is one among many who, on occasion, says the right things about exercise, yet has not exactly been vigilant in any effort to firmly explain just how damaging it can be to us (in some cases I do believe he's gone along with the line that it 'can' be helpful, actually, though I'd have to go back & look it up). So it's hard to view something like this in much of a positive light, unfortunately.
Sounds like the definition of a politician. I already figured that out from your other post.
 

ahimsa

ahimsa_pdx on twitter
Messages
1,921
Activity minitor....I hope they dont use the fitbit as its flaw to accurately capture fast spikes in heart rate. Missing spikes of up to 20 BPM.

Here's an image of what appears to be the heart monitor, it's on the web page linked in the first post of this thread:

Friedberg-HeartMonitor.jpg


Caption text = "Dr. Fred Friedberg explains the heart monitor and electrode placement used in the chronic fatigue syndrome study to fellow investigator Dr. Patricia Bruckenthal of the School of Nursing, and Jenna Adamowicz, center, study coordinator from the Department Psychiatry."

I don't know what should be top priority for ME/CFS/SEID (or whatever name/subgroup fits). I'm no expert, no medical background, hard for me to figure out what would give best results. But it seems to me that studying heart rate, esp. heart rate variability (HRV), could be helpful in understanding more about this disease.
 

Groggy Doggy

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1,130
And just like it was with HIV, silence = death.
I watched the CNN series, "the eighties", the broadcast called "The Fight Against AiDS". I highly recommend it (but your probably already watched it). I liked the way they organized their talent:

1) the scientific minded patients (who knew more than the doctor's) worked behind closed doors with CDC to teach them about the illness
2) the hollywood entertainment talented patients, came up with dramatic protest themes

In watching the events unfold on the tv news each night, as a viewer, I never knew what was going on behind closed doors at the CDC.

So...for ME I don't know what kind of talent we have and how it should be aligned. But I definately see the advantage to working both sides of the door.

GD
 

Groggy Doggy

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Messages
1,130
Here's an image of what appears to be the heart monitor, it's on the web page linked in the first post of this thread:

View attachment 16173

Caption text = "Dr. Fred Friedberg explains the heart monitor and electrode placement used in the chronic fatigue syndrome study to fellow investigator Dr. Patricia Bruckenthal of the School of Nursing, and Jenna Adamowicz, center, study coordinator from the Department Psychiatry."

I don't know what should be top priority for ME/CFS/SEID (or whatever name/subgroup fits). I'm no expert, no medical background, hard for me to figure out what would give best results. But it seems to me that studying heart rate, esp. heart rate variability (HRV), could be helpful in understanding more about this disease.

Logically yes, but in reality it is difficult to coordinate what we are logging in our daily journals to coincide with the exact times on the HRM results. I tried to do this for 6 months/ You would need write down every little nuance. We are tired and exhausted so much, its hard to make it an ongoing priority. I tried just about all the latest HRMs, and showering (which is already a chore for US) can get way more complicated. Its just one more thing to deal with. Some are so inconvenient, as you frequently have to change batteries, and then it may stop working after you change them, so then you have to call the company and have them reset the device. And sometimes the device just stops working, and the company will keeps calling your telephone number until you pick up the phone. Some devices will nag you if you are too far away from it. All of the electrodes gave me bad rashes that turned into sores. Even though I kept rotating the electrodes, after awhile my chest had so many sore there was no place left to stick the electrodes. And then there was sleeping issue. I kept trying to make sure the electrode wires and device didn't tangle with my CPAP hose. It's just one more barrier to getting a good nights rest. Sometimes I felt so annoyed like I was taking care of a small infant, and it was just too much to deal with.

I would think that these concerns are more tolerable for a healthy person to deal with. But as an ME peep, it's really hard and exhausting. I never saw the payback in all the work I did 'baby sitting' these devices. I have zero interest in wearing them again.

So in conclusion, you can wear these things for months and get lots of data. But who is going to intrepret the data? The psychiatrict nurse, a psychologist, a cardiologist (if so what kind of a cardiologist, general or EP)? And it's going to be difficult to get a cardiologist to say that something is wrong, because they have no training in ME, and only are trained to look for specific type of events. I almost passed out several times, and during those events my monitor data looked fine according to the cardiologist. So then I guess it must be "all in my head?"

So I personally think the study is a waste of time and money, but I don't have a 'seat at the table' to give input to the decision. $1.5M can be put to better use, that's a lot of money, no matter what anyone tells you.

GD :dog:
 

JayS

Senior Member
Messages
195
Agreed. What would be better? What should I have asked of the NIH? I don't know. I mean, I have an idea, but then there's this other aspect of what happens when research that's labeled 'groundbreaking' gets published. You know, the sort of study that is splashed out with great fanfare by a (probably in-house) PR agency at Columbia or Stanford or wherever. Nothing against them, of course. But we get papers from people like Montoya and Lipkin/Hornig that show issues like brain and/or cytokine abnormalities, and it seems like something that should, well, make a difference somehow. Lead to people not being treated like crap by medical science because they don't take the time to understand this disease we're stricken with.

I remember the Schutzer et al study from 5 years ago. That was a big one! Accompanied by these puffed sentences that 'scientists have finally found a physical/organic basis for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.' Heck, the Cornell paper from last week almost sort of implied that it was their researchers that were the first to find something 'real' in CFS (though that may have been referring to something more specific, which would of course alter the context, so I'm not sure...still, reading 'for the first time' is kind of irritating). And it's not like we never see this--it happens more frequently than it used to, before people like Hanson, Montoya, and Lipkin were publishing in the field.

But now it's years since the spinal fluid proteins study. Coming up on two years since Montoya's brain abnormalities paper. A year and a half since the IOM report, for better or worse, and that was followed not long after by the Lipkin/Hornig paper (cytokine abnormalities in spinal fluid in CFS ended up magically being the subject of a Peter White review on a poster board at a psych conference a year ago). And what has changed? I mean, much like the ICC, the IOM is not a badge we can wave at doctors to try to get them to take us seriously--I can't see that as anything but a counterproductive approach, actually. On Facebook a patient claimed that when she told a doctor in Pennsylvania that CFS was serious, that Ian Lipkin was researching it, she claimed that the doctor laughed at her. A few months ago on "Science-Based Medicine" blog, Lipkin's name was raised, and while that could seen as being a weak move to try to argue from authority, he's not some schmo, and his presence in the field should, one would think, count for something. A moderator responded that he neither knew nor cared who Ian Lipkin was. Wasn't too impressed with anything else people showed him, either, including all of the PACE stuff from Tuller, Coyne, etc.

I used to think that research was what we needed to change minds. It's evidence, and, we were told, evidence was what was required in order to take the disease seriously. Well, although we still get tons of psych CFS research, we've sure had a bunch of high-profile stuff in the past couple of years. Has it changed minds? Well, gee--is it a coincidence that we've now had at least 8 deaths in the past two months alone (not that we can automatically assign cause of death to ME in all of those cases, but come on)? Have many minds changed when we know that patients still have miserable experiences with medical professionals on an ongoing basis?

Unless a true smoking gun was found--which I believe is possible, but not likely--I'm beginning to wonder what research it's going to take to change anyone's mind. The NIH is on our side now? Great. What does that mean? Is it going to matter if even Nath publishes a pretty good paper that few will take seriously? I'm starting to lean towards the idea--in light of FF being the recipient of HOW MUCH MONEY? That minds need to change first, somehow. Then, they'll want research. And then, it'll mean something. The substantial additions to the literature in just the past few years don't seem to impress folks: either we're cherry-picking, or they're pilot studies that haven't been replicated, or there's no control group...all of which are valid points to raise. But you know what? The standard that this disease is held to is beyond ridiculous, and nobody ever talks about it. And it would be unprofessional for the researchers to do so, but just because it isn't spoken of doesn't mean it isn't a very big, very real, elephant in the room. I mean...I'm not big on the anti-'Big Pharma' bandwagon...but you know what? If they had to work in OUR paradigm, they wouldn't get anything approved, ever.

I don't have the answers. But now we're all getting older and the deaths are bunching up, and more will follow. Sorry for venting. Maybe something will even come from this. But right now it looks like a real waste.
 

Groggy Doggy

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Messages
1,130
Agreed. What would be better?
I don't have the answers. But now we're all getting older and the deaths are bunching up, and more will follow. Sorry for venting. Maybe something will even come from this. But right now it looks like a real waste.

My doctor is self-funding his research now, since the NIH turned him down 5 years ago. He is way ahead of the rest of the pack and can complete his research relatively inexpensively by using existing published research.

And then there is Ron Davis who getting close to figuring our ME by using high tech Genome. His research is very expensive. I personally think my doctor and Ron will land up getting close to the same conclusion, but using different tools to get there.

I think we should start a petition to oust the heart rate monitor study, and demand all of the $1.5M to go Ron Davis. If anyone has the details on the heart rate monitor study, I will write the rebuttal. If someone else can write why Ron Davis should get the money, that would be helpful.

I am in the US and its essentially coming from a bucket with my taxpayer money, so I feel an obligation not to waste it.


GD
 

Denise

Senior Member
Messages
1,095
I have not read each post so I apologize if I repeat what others have said.
In order to really get worthwhile signals, this study needs several control groups.
Among them:
healthy people,
people with OI but who do not have ME,
people with other diseases....
 

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
Two Stanford MDs "found that the heart is unlikely to be affected by ME/CFS". Francois Haddard, MD is a cardiologist that collaborates with the Stanford ME/CFS clinic. Mehdi Skhiri, MD, is Internal Medicine

http://med.stanford.edu/content/dam/sm/chronicfatiguesyndrome/documents/CFS Montoya Newsletter Spring 2016 FINAL (1).pdf

View attachment 16186

Maybe this applies to CFS but if you have POTS or NMH or some other type of dyautonomia then isnt the heart effected?

If your heart rate increases by 50 to 80 beats upon standing over time would this not damage the organ?

I really need to say that subcategorizing this illness ASAP is in order because we have data and studies muddying the waters its really delaying effective treatment.

Thanks Standford for doing this but the 3 things that make sense are brain, mitochondria and gut......

NIH please give this disease money
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Two Stanford MDs "found that the heart is unlikely to be affected by ME/CFS". Francois Haddard, MD is a cardiologist that collaborates with the Stanford ME/CFS clinic. Mehdi Skhiri, MD, is Internal Medicine

This observation can be interpreted a couple of ways. One way is saying they don't think ME/CFS involves the heart. Period. They allude to cardiovascular aging, but...eh?

Another is that it can happen, but the likelihood that it will is low. Similar to the concept that Lyme affects the heart - it can and does happen, but the relative incidence is not that high, so it is unlikely for most people who contract Lyme to have cardiac involvement. (But it can kill ya if it does...)

So, not clear here on the context of this quote.

But I have to agree with @Justin30 , this seems odd with POTS or NMH or low blood volume (heart would have to pump harder, etc.) associated with ME/CFS - it seems the heart IS involved to at least some degree in some pwME.
 

Groggy Doggy

Guest
Messages
1,130
Maybe this applies to CFS but if you have POTS or NMH or some other type of dyautonomia then isnt the heart effected?

If your heart rate increases by 50 to 80 beats upon standing over time would this not damage the organ?

I really need to say that subcategorizing this illness ASAP is in order because we have data and studies muddying the waters its really delaying effective treatment.

Thanks Standford for doing this but the 3 things that make sense are brain, mitochondria and gut......

NIH please give this disease money

From my experience, cardiologists are going to be are biggest enemies. They keep pushing exercise as a way for us to get better; they think our problem is that we are 'deconditioned'. And if we don't 'step it up' and keep pushing harder, then we have emotional issues since we are exaggerating. They don't want to even try to understand what PEM is. They are baffled by our 2 Day CPET test results.

I would much rather try and convince a british psychologist what ME/CFS is...rather than a US Cardiologist.

In my experience, my heart functioning and ME/CFS symptoms are very much intertwined, especially PEM.

The reason I posted this is to prove my theory; that even if we spend $1.5M on a heart rate monitor study, in the end, no one will thinks its a credible study because it will have to be blessed by a few cardiologists. And I say, "good luck with that!"

So futhermore, I predict that if we ever expect an apology, in the future, then the last specialists that will come forward will be US Cardiologists (I hope that they 'get on board' and learn to 'think out of the box', and actually start helping us rather that continue to invalidate us)

GD :dog: