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Request to Action For ME to support David Tuller

slysaint

Senior Member
Messages
2,125
Action for MEs Facebook page has this:
Colin Barton The prognosis of CFS/ME – Dr Alastair Miller 29/3/17

Despite a huge investment in biomedical research in the field of CFS/ME, there is still no unifying mechanism that explains the development and persistence of the syndrome. Neither is there a simple laboratory test that can confirm nor exclude the diagnosis. The diagnosis remains a clinical one made by an experienced clinician and based on a very characteristic pattern of symptoms. Although every patient’s experience may differ, the overall constellation of features makes the diagnosis clear so it is a positive diagnosis rather than a “diagnosis of exclusion” (although it is usual to perform a number of simple laboratory investigations to ensure that no alternative or additional diagnosis exists).

Once the diagnosis has been established there are two questions on everyone’s mind. What is the treatment and what is the prognosis (outlook)? I have not been asked to review the treatment here and it remains controversial but suffice it to say that in line with the lack of a disease mechanism there is similarly, a total absence of pharmacological approaches to treatment. So although some drugs may be helpful in relieving specific symptoms, there is no drug that will affect the overall natural history of the condition and effect a “cure”. Although NICE guidelines and the PACE trial remain contentious amongst some patient groups there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the current approaches of cognitive behavior therapy (CBT) and Graded Exercise Therapy have helped and continue to help a large number of people to recover from the condition. This is based on my own personal experience, trial evidence (PACE and others), anecdotal experience from colleagues and patients and data from the National Outcomes Database (NOD).

Many of the websites give (in my view) an unrealistically gloomy picture of the outcome for CFS/ME. It is likely that those who still suffer from the condition may contribute more vociferously to the websites whereas those who have recovered may prefer to move on. Apart from the NOD there is little scientific data on which to prognosticate so my views are based largely on anecdotal experience gathered over a 30 year career of involvement with this condition. However, they are largely in accord with the NOD data.

In my view the simplest way to think about prognosis is in “thirds”. Using best available therapy (CBT/GET delivered by trained and experienced therapists), approximately a third of patients will make a full recovery and return to their pre morbid activity, about a third will improve but not recover fully and about a third will stay the same (and a small number may deteriorate).

There are various markers of a good prognosis:

• Having a relatively acute onset with a specific pre-disposing illness
• Not having any ongoing specific aggravating factors such as disputes at work, relationship issues, litigation etc
• Having an open mind about the causes and disease mechanisms
• Early engagement with a good therapist

Conversely, the markers of a poor prognosis are

• Having a slow onset over a number of months with no obvious precipitating illness
• Having ongoing perpetuating factors (as above)
Constantly looking for an alternative biomedical explanation for symptoms
• Using alternative, unproved and often expensive approaches to therapy.

In summary although the prognosis overall is variable and for those with severe longstanding symptoms and quality of life is severely impaired, overall the majority of sufferers will improve with time. Hopefully in future we shall have therapies that can improve this prognosis further.

(Conflicts of Interest. Alastair Miller is now retired from CFS/ME practice but spent 10 years as Clinical Lead for CFS/ME at the Liverpool Infectious Disease Unit. He reviewed adverse events for the PACE trial and was on the Trial Steering Committee for the GETSET trial. He was Chair of the British Association for Chronic Fatigue and ME (BACME) for 3 years and Principal Medical Adviser to Action for ME (AfME))"


They are clearly quite happy to have this on their FB page.

Just to reconfirm AfMEs support of CBT/GET and PACE despite their protestations to the contrary.

Any AfME members reading this should consider diverting their membership fees and donations to David Tuller who has done more to call to account those responsible for ME sufferers lack of real treatment, in 18months than AfME have ever done.
 

JohntheJack

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Swansea, UK
Action for MEs Facebook page has this:
Colin Barton The prognosis of CFS/ME – Dr Alastair Miller 29/3/17

Despite a huge investment in biomedical research in the field of CFS/ME, there is still no unifying mechanism that explains the development and persistence of the syndrome. Neither is there a simple laboratory test that can confirm nor exclude the diagnosis. The diagnosis remains a clinical one made by an experienced clinician and based on a very characteristic pattern of symptoms. Although every patient’s experience may differ, the overall constellation of features makes the diagnosis clear so it is a positive diagnosis rather than a “diagnosis of exclusion” (although it is usual to perform a number of simple laboratory investigations to ensure that no alternative or additional diagnosis exists).

Once the diagnosis has been established there are two questions on everyone’s mind. What is the treatment and what is the prognosis (outlook)? I have not been asked to review the treatment here and it remains controversial but suffice it to say that in line with the lack of a disease mechanism there is similarly, a total absence of pharmacological approaches to treatment. So although some drugs may be helpful in relieving specific symptoms, there is no drug that will affect the overall natural history of the condition and effect a “cure”. Although NICE guidelines and the PACE trial remain contentious amongst some patient groups there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the current approaches of cognitive behavior therapy (CBT) and Graded Exercise Therapy have helped and continue to help a large number of people to recover from the condition. This is based on my own personal experience, trial evidence (PACE and others), anecdotal experience from colleagues and patients and data from the National Outcomes Database (NOD).

Many of the websites give (in my view) an unrealistically gloomy picture of the outcome for CFS/ME. It is likely that those who still suffer from the condition may contribute more vociferously to the websites whereas those who have recovered may prefer to move on. Apart from the NOD there is little scientific data on which to prognosticate so my views are based largely on anecdotal experience gathered over a 30 year career of involvement with this condition. However, they are largely in accord with the NOD data.

In my view the simplest way to think about prognosis is in “thirds”. Using best available therapy (CBT/GET delivered by trained and experienced therapists), approximately a third of patients will make a full recovery and return to their pre morbid activity, about a third will improve but not recover fully and about a third will stay the same (and a small number may deteriorate).

There are various markers of a good prognosis:

• Having a relatively acute onset with a specific pre-disposing illness
• Not having any ongoing specific aggravating factors such as disputes at work, relationship issues, litigation etc
• Having an open mind about the causes and disease mechanisms
• Early engagement with a good therapist

Conversely, the markers of a poor prognosis are

• Having a slow onset over a number of months with no obvious precipitating illness
• Having ongoing perpetuating factors (as above)
Constantly looking for an alternative biomedical explanation for symptoms
• Using alternative, unproved and often expensive approaches to therapy.

In summary although the prognosis overall is variable and for those with severe longstanding symptoms and quality of life is severely impaired, overall the majority of sufferers will improve with time. Hopefully in future we shall have therapies that can improve this prognosis further.

(Conflicts of Interest. Alastair Miller is now retired from CFS/ME practice but spent 10 years as Clinical Lead for CFS/ME at the Liverpool Infectious Disease Unit. He reviewed adverse events for the PACE trial and was on the Trial Steering Committee for the GETSET trial. He was Chair of the British Association for Chronic Fatigue and ME (BACME) for 3 years and Principal Medical Adviser to Action for ME (AfME))"


They are clearly quite happy to have this on their FB page.

Just to reconfirm AfMEs support of CBT/GET and PACE despite their protestations to the contrary.

Any AfME members reading this should consider diverting their membership fees and donations to David Tuller who has done more to call to account those responsible for ME sufferers lack of real treatment, in 18months than AfME have ever done.

That's appalling. Do you have a link? I didn't see it on the Facebook page.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Action for MEs Facebook page has this:
Colin Barton The prognosis of CFS/ME – Dr Alastair Miller 29/3/17

Despite a huge investment in biomedical research in the field of CFS/ME, there is still no unifying mechanism that explains the development and persistence of the syndrome. Neither is there a simple laboratory test that can confirm nor exclude the diagnosis. The diagnosis remains a clinical one made by an experienced clinician and based on a very characteristic pattern of symptoms. Although every patient’s experience may differ, the overall constellation of features makes the diagnosis clear so it is a positive diagnosis rather than a “diagnosis of exclusion” (although it is usual to perform a number of simple laboratory investigations to ensure that no alternative or additional diagnosis exists).

Once the diagnosis has been established there are two questions on everyone’s mind. What is the treatment and what is the prognosis (outlook)? I have not been asked to review the treatment here and it remains controversial but suffice it to say that in line with the lack of a disease mechanism there is similarly, a total absence of pharmacological approaches to treatment. So although some drugs may be helpful in relieving specific symptoms, there is no drug that will affect the overall natural history of the condition and effect a “cure”. Although NICE guidelines and the PACE trial remain contentious amongst some patient groups there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the current approaches of cognitive behavior therapy (CBT) and Graded Exercise Therapy have helped and continue to help a large number of people to recover from the condition. This is based on my own personal experience, trial evidence (PACE and others), anecdotal experience from colleagues and patients and data from the National Outcomes Database (NOD).

Many of the websites give (in my view) an unrealistically gloomy picture of the outcome for CFS/ME. It is likely that those who still suffer from the condition may contribute more vociferously to the websites whereas those who have recovered may prefer to move on. Apart from the NOD there is little scientific data on which to prognosticate so my views are based largely on anecdotal experience gathered over a 30 year career of involvement with this condition. However, they are largely in accord with the NOD data.

In my view the simplest way to think about prognosis is in “thirds”. Using best available therapy (CBT/GET delivered by trained and experienced therapists), approximately a third of patients will make a full recovery and return to their pre morbid activity, about a third will improve but not recover fully and about a third will stay the same (and a small number may deteriorate).

There are various markers of a good prognosis:

• Having a relatively acute onset with a specific pre-disposing illness
• Not having any ongoing specific aggravating factors such as disputes at work, relationship issues, litigation etc
• Having an open mind about the causes and disease mechanisms
• Early engagement with a good therapist

Conversely, the markers of a poor prognosis are

• Having a slow onset over a number of months with no obvious precipitating illness
• Having ongoing perpetuating factors (as above)
Constantly looking for an alternative biomedical explanation for symptoms
• Using alternative, unproved and often expensive approaches to therapy.

In summary although the prognosis overall is variable and for those with severe longstanding symptoms and quality of life is severely impaired, overall the majority of sufferers will improve with time. Hopefully in future we shall have therapies that can improve this prognosis further.

(Conflicts of Interest. Alastair Miller is now retired from CFS/ME practice but spent 10 years as Clinical Lead for CFS/ME at the Liverpool Infectious Disease Unit. He reviewed adverse events for the PACE trial and was on the Trial Steering Committee for the GETSET trial. He was Chair of the British Association for Chronic Fatigue and ME (BACME) for 3 years and Principal Medical Adviser to Action for ME (AfME))"


They are clearly quite happy to have this on their FB page.

Just to reconfirm AfMEs support of CBT/GET and PACE despite their protestations to the contrary.

Any AfME members reading this should consider diverting their membership fees and donations to David Tuller who has done more to call to account those responsible for ME sufferers lack of real treatment, in 18months than AfME have ever done.

The results from in the clinics are worse than in the PACE trial.


There was not a statistically significant increased rate of recovery in the PACE trial with either CBT or GET. So it would seem likely the recovery rates in the clinics are similar or lower again.

https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/qjmed/hct061

QJM. 2013 Jun;106(6):555-65. doi: 10.1093/qjmed/hct061. Epub 2013 Mar 28.
Treatment outcome in adults with chronic fatigue syndrome: a prospective study in England based on the CFS/ME National Outcomes Database.
Crawley E1, Collin SM, White PD, Rimes K, Sterne JA, May MT; CFS/ME National Outcomes Database.
Author information

Erratum in
  • QJM. 2013 Jun;106(6):567.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is relatively common and disabling. Over 8000 patients attend adult services each year, yet little is known about the outcome of patients attending NHS services.

AIM:
Investigate the outcome of patients with CFS and what factors predict outcome.

DESIGN:
Longitudinal patient cohort.

METHODS:
We used data from six CFS/ME (myalgic encephalomyelitis) specialist services to measure changes in fatigue (Chalder Fatigue Scale), physical function (SF-36), anxiety and depression (Hospital Anxiety and Depression Scale) and pain (visual analogue pain rating scale) between clinical assessment and 8-20 months of follow-up. We used multivariable linear regression to investigate baseline factors associated with outcomes at follow-up.

RESULTS:
Baseline data obtained at clinical assessment were available for 1643 patients, of whom 834 (51%) had complete follow-up data. There were improvements in fatigue [mean difference from assessment to outcome: -6.8; 95% confidence interval (CI) -7.4 to -6.2; P < 0.001]; physical function (4.4; 95% CI 3.0-5.8; P < 0.001), anxiety (-0.6; 95% CI -0.9 to -0.3; P < 0.001), depression (-1.6; 95% CI -1.9 to -1.4; P < 0.001) and pain (-5.3; 95% CI -7.0 to -3.6; P < 0.001). Worse fatigue, physical function and pain at clinical assessment predicted a worse outcome for fatigue at follow-up. Older age, increased pain and physical function at assessment were associated with poorer physical function at follow-up.

CONCLUSION:
Patients who attend NHS specialist CFS/ME services can expect similar improvements in fatigue, anxiety and depression to participants receiving cognitive behavioural therapy and graded exercise therapy in a recent trial, but are likely to experience less improvement in physical function. Outcomes were predicted by fatigue, disability and pain at assessment.
 
Last edited:

nasim marie jafry

Senior Member
Messages
129
That's appalling. Do you have a link? I didn't see it on the Facebook page.

If he was chair of BACME, it's not in the least surprising he would have these views.

Dearie me, the good gentleman will be disappointed, I fit his criteria for 'good prognosis', except I didn't have early engagement with a good therapist (mainly because I didn't need one, I had a neurologist instead). What a circus. I hope there are dolphins and elephants and lions too.
 

slysaint

Senior Member
Messages
2,125
That's appalling. Do you have a link? I didn't see it on the Facebook page.
https://en-gb.facebook.com/actionforme/
in the other comments on their top story about Phoebe Howlett (recovered after 4 years) who now appears to be doing a world tour as 'ambassador' for AfME.
upload_2017-6-2_9-2-4.png


Colin Barton is the Chairman of Sussex and Kent ME/CFS Society:
http://measussex.org.uk/about-us/
"
The organisation has seven honorary patrons. These are Sir Andrew Bowden MBE, Prof Anthony J Pinching, Simon Kirby MP, Dr Keith Hine, Mr Russell Grant, Caroline Lucas MP and Miss Jenny Seagrove.

Group officers have working relations and easy access to the charity’s advisors Dr Alan Stewart, Prof Esther Crawley, Dr Alastair Miller, Dr Gabrielle Murphy, Dr Neil Harrison and Prof Leslie Findley."

She gets everywhere:devil:

edit: maybe Green Party supporters would like to enlighten Caroline Lucas?
 

JohntheJack

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Swansea, UK
https://en-gb.facebook.com/actionforme/
in the other comments on their top story about Phoebe Howlett (recovered after 4 years) who now appears to be doing a world tour as 'ambassador' for AfME.
View attachment 21583

Colin Barton is the Chairman of Sussex and Kent ME/CFS Society:
http://measussex.org.uk/about-us/
"
The organisation has seven honorary patrons. These are Sir Andrew Bowden MBE, Prof Anthony J Pinching, Simon Kirby MP, Dr Keith Hine, Mr Russell Grant, Caroline Lucas MP and Miss Jenny Seagrove.

Group officers have working relations and easy access to the charity’s advisors Dr Alan Stewart, Prof Esther Crawley, Dr Alastair Miller, Dr Gabrielle Murphy, Dr Neil Harrison and Prof Leslie Findley."

She gets everywhere:devil:

edit: maybe Green Party supporters would like to enlighten Caroline Lucas?

Right. Thanks, so to be fair to AfME, it's been posted as a comment on their Facebook page.

It's taken from here.
http://measussex.org.uk/what-is-me-or-cfs/

The Sussex and Kent ME/CFS Society is known to take an establishment view. It does considerable damage in my view.
 

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
Not sure a petition is best way. We should not have to force a patient charity to act in its own members interests. I think a boycott of AFME would be in order and publicising their sordid history and collusion with the psychiatrists and stop people from funding them with donations which harm pwme.

Maybe this will publicise their shameful stance?
I have come to be of the same view Yogi. There is considerbale disatisfaction re multiple behaviours of AfME here. It's relationship with Esther Crawley has rendered it little more than her puppet. I am equally inclined to the view the we need to leave the charity as members (and did so two years ago when they funded Crawley's research into CBT/GET at NHS clinics).

Agreed. Item 3 is self contradictory and shoots anyone in the foot who signs this - if the outcome is pre-decided what point is there in any discussion! Exactly the flaw in the whole BSP brigade's approach. Not sure I could sign this anyway, given the rationale behind this kind of statement. Own goal if ever their is one. I think the following statements risk supporters being validly accused of the same bias/parochialism as those we strive against:-

I would at least reword maybe more along the lines of:

1. To be wholly objective and impartial, and not afraid to speak up for David Tuller and Vincent Racaniello.

2. To make it clear that David Tuller and Vincent Racaniello have the full support of the vast majority of patients and carers.

3. In any discussion or decision, to side with David Tuller and Vincent Racaniello.
I would add
3. To make clear that attacking other researchers because you disagree with their viewpoints will not be tolerated of members of the CMRC.

But also in specific context, I think point three isw appropriate.

@JohntheJack Thanks for your effort in arranging this.

How many false signatures were they? Given she has used the reason of false signatures as a get out of clause for not responding at all to your reasonable request , I am concerned AFME could be just using this as an excuse. How can we trust that they did not do this to be able to use as an excuse. I would not put it past them.
I would not be at all surprised if members of AfME staff did in fact sign the petition and feigned ignorance when confronted by an Angry Sonya C...

Action for MEs Facebook page has this:
Colin Barton The prognosis of CFS/ME – Dr Alastair Miller 29/3/17


(Conflicts of Interest. Alastair Miller is now retired from CFS/ME practice but spent 10 years as Clinical Lead for CFS/ME at the Liverpool Infectious Disease Unit. He reviewed adverse events for the PACE trial and was on the Trial Steering Committee for the GETSET trial. He was Chair of the British Association for Chronic Fatigue and ME (BACME) for 3 years and Principal Medical Adviser to Action for ME (AfME))"
In other words their medical advisor was one of the lyers or idiots repsonsible for this trial!
 

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
Right. Thanks, so to be fair to AfME, it's been posted as a comment on their Facebook page.

It's taken from here.
http://measussex.org.uk/what-is-me-or-cfs/

The Sussex and Kent ME/CFS Society is known to take an establishment view. It does considerable damage in my view.
Did you read their 'pharmacists guide'? It's effectively discouranging them from continuing the plehtora of drugs many of us may need and encouaring the use of TCAs for pain management. Very many TCAs either cause severe polyuria, have doping effects or disrupt the parasympathetic nervous system. They are idiotic medications for ME sufferers since they cause of exacerbate many of our symptoms.
 

NelliePledge

Senior Member
Messages
807
Did you read their 'pharmacists guide'? It's effectively discouranging them from continuing the plehtora of drugs many of us may need and encouaring the use of TCAs for pain management. Very many TCAs either cause severe polyuria, have doping effects or disrupt the parasympathetic nervous system. They are idiotic medications for ME sufferers since they cause of exacerbate many of our symptoms.
TCA?
 

Leopardtail

Senior Member
Messages
1,151
Location
England
TCA is shorthand TriCyclic Antidpressant. They are quite old fahsioned anti-deperessants. They are often prescribed for sleep, but my experience and that of many others is they often further worsen day time functioning and have a habit of becoming less effective over time while creating growing side effects that due to their slow onset often go unrecognised.
 

Ysabelle-S

Highly Vexatious
Messages
524
Constantly looking for an alternative biomedical explanation for symptoms

I didn't come back to this thread until today and have only just read this pile of mince. They are not remotely interested in biomedical reasons - they wouldn't even understand them. Honestly, why isn't there a mass exodus of patients? Is it primarily the newer patients who are being sucked in? Is it patients who're keen to give them another chance no matter how many times AfME buggers things up for us? Supporting this organisation is detrimental to the well being of our patient group. They will never change.
 

NelliePledge

Senior Member
Messages
807
TCA is shorthand TriCyclic Antidpressant. They are quite old fahsioned anti-deperessants. They are often prescribed for sleep, but my experience and that of many others is they often further worsen day time functioning and have a habit of becoming less effective over time while creating growing side effects that due to their slow onset often go unrecognised.
Ah ok. And relevant to me as I've been taking amitryptiline to help with sleep. And I've decided I'm going to stop taking it and see if I can get melatonin from my GP
 

Demepivo

Dolores Abernathy
Messages
411
The lobbying of AYME was supposed successful in that it no longer exists.

The recent disastrous non AfME statement on PACE offered up some classic lines straight out of the mouth of Mary-Jane Willow.

Think of AfME as useful idiots for the BPS dogma. Sonya C will never say anything negative about EC because of personal conflicts of interest.