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repairing with B12 without overmethylation?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by boo85, May 23, 2013.

  1. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Regarding the potassium issue, I've found that needing an extra 2000mg per day is a continual part of taking even a very small amount of methyl b12. Up to quite high dose I've found this need doesn't vary and is easy to keep under control with supplements. Experimenting with high doses of enzymatic therapy, in the range of 30mg, has created a more voracious need for potassium that is over 5000mg per day and harder toi keep under control. This requires complete salt avoidance and supplementaion through the day and waking in the night. So quite difficult. I'm not certain how the folate and b vamins are playing into this, to be determined by observation. I've backed down to alternating between 15mg of enzymatic therapy and 60mg AOR mb12s.
     
  2. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    L'engle, do you mean 2000mg of potassium as 11000mg of gluconate, or 2000mg of p.gluconate? And what do you mean by enzymatic therapy? I know the company, but not which product of theirs you are referring to (if it is one of theirs).

    Thanks for your patience with my newbie questions :).
     
  3. determined

    determined Senior Member

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    Some supportive evidence that the supplements are working: Since I've been at this over two years now, I have noticed that using the same capsule too long is a mistake. Since my intake is so low, I could use the same capsule, probably forever(!), but it becomes less effective when I try this. When I noticed my bottle was past the expiration date, I got a new one and had new start up reactions (similar to the ones I had initially). Recently, even though my bottle wasn't expired, I went to a new bottle and again, got some start up symptoms.

    Now my strategy is to only use a capsule once and throw the rest away. I think opening the capsule and exposing it to air decreases its effectiveness.

    I do have a long history of using tiny specks of supplements with big effect. I was so chemically sensitive for a few years I couldn't go anywhere, so weak and fatigued it was torture to try to move a crayon across a page (coloring with my daughter), so food restricted I had just three or four safe foods. Any time I tried ANYTHING as a supplement, I got huge start up reactions. My point is that I have a very long history of monitoring cause and effect relationships in this illness.

    Before I tried the supplements, I read a lot about other people's experiences. It really seemed, for most people, the supplements were too much to handle. So initially, I just wanted to avoid major problems when starting them. But as I saw very clear results (of both start up reactions and then improvement), I started to think very differently about HOW the supplements were helping. I still find it impossible to believe that I am supplementing enough to remedy a deficiency (at least in the conventional sense), so it must be something else.

    While I do have a strong background in science and medicine, I don't pretend to fully understand this.... but I think back to other experiences with sudden, dramatic shifts in my condition. For example, in the midst of severe chemical sensitivity over YEARS, it would very suddenly disappear for a day or so when I had a bacterial infection like strep. I think it must have been a sudden, massive shift in my immune system. When I received chemotherapy for cancer, I had a very dramatic decrease in weakness/fatigue, also very sudden. Again, a shift in my immune system.

    Finally, I would just say: what is there to lose with this approach? If it's too small to help anyone, then all that is lost is a month or so of time. IF taking the "normal" starting dose was clearly helping people with no problem, of course that would be the best approach, but when I scan the forums, I don't see much of this. Rich's admonition that sometimes the negative start-up symptoms can have "momentum" has stayed with me. Most of us are just too fragile to risk this.
     
  4. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I don't need extra potassium. However, I do need extra magnesium. My Nutreval test confirms this. I wouldn't want my potassium any higher than it already is. So this thing about needing potassium is not cut and dried. I would say that you should monitor your electrolytes and increase whatever is right for you (potassium and magnesium are electrolytes).

    You can monitor what supplements to take and what amounts with self muscle testing. I use this constantly as my supplement/med needs are changing rapidly and often as I do methylation.

    I started with 0.5mcg of methylB12. This was the highest amount I could tolerate. I've worked up to around 50mcg. I tried 100mcg but the mercury detox got too intense. So I'm back to 50mcg for the duration. I've had many positive results even on just 50mcg, including normalizing of thyroid and partial normalization of adrenals, deeper sleep, mercury detox, etc.
     
    susieq777 likes this.
  5. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    Thank you for the responses, everyone. I really appreciate it.

    For the past 8 days I've only had 60 mcg of b12, so I think it's given my body time to recover from the methylation, or metal detox or whatever it was. I'm feeling gradually less anxious and paranoid as each day goes by.If I do think I need to start taking b12 again I will stick to the hydroxy injections, and/or lower it to 60 mcg every day or second day.

    How do I measure what my potassium or magnesium level is? Is there an at-home device (similar to what diabetics use)?
     
  6. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    No problem :) I take country life's potassium product. The enzymatic therapy product is b12 infusion, which is methylcobalamin. Not sure I understand the question of amount of potassium? I mean 2000mg.
     
  7. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    L'engle:

    What I mean is, are you taking 20 of the Country Life tablets per day?

    Thanks for your help; I am trying to get a sense of what dosages people are finding useful :).
     
  8. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Yes, I mean I am taking 20 tablets a day. It's hard to get use needing that much of something!

    This is the place to ask and answer questions :). One thing though, if you asking someone a question, you should press the reply button on their post, so they get an alert and know to read your new post.
     
    Critterina likes this.
  9. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    L'engle, thank you very much! The potassium info and the forum advice were both very helpful :).

    I am viewing this site on a small screen, so lots of stuff is off the side of the screen where I don't see it. Including the reply button ;).
     
    L'engle likes this.
  10. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    L'engle likes this.
  11. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Sushi: Like this? I do that sometimes just to show who I am talking to. On this site does it send a notice?
     
    Critterina and L'engle like this.
  12. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Yes, NilaJones you should be getting alerts when I do this. Look in the top right hand corner of your screen.

    Sushi
     
  13. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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  14. mominmo

    mominmo

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    I am thinking much differently about startup effects right now. When I first started taking B12, I was taking a lot--two 5000 Jarrows and an adB12 a day. When I was taking that much, I was having some low potassium issues, but nothing else. When I cut back, I started having symptoms that I can only characterize as symptoms of low B12. They definitely don't feel like healing! I've read of others who have B12 injections (and their levels are still low) having the same issues. Even though I haven't had blood work, I'm convinced I had/have megaloblastic anemia. I couldn't figure out why I would have symptoms of low B12 from taking B12!

    I've tried all manner of things to solve the problem up to this point and was ready to go cold turkey on supplements for a month and get blood work done. The severe low potassium and having to take so much NoSalt was making me crazy. It's been a few days since I've had just 250 mcg of B12 and the deficiency symptoms are quite pronounced. Today it occurred to me that I'm not taking ENOUGH B12. I am just priming the pump on red blood cell genesis and just like my potassium needs are way up, so is my B12. You need a lot more B12 when you are creating cells.

    I am going to try taking two Jarrows a day. If the symptoms continue, I'll increase it. I've just ordered gelatin capsules that I can put the NoSalt into. I think that will help a lot in managing the hypokalemia without gagging. I will let you know how it goes!
     
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    NOW Foods sells potassium gluconate and potassium chloride in powder form. It's much cheaper than buying in capsules or tablets.
     
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Are you taking 60 mcg of b12 every day or only once in the past 8 days? And are you taking it sublingually or orally?
     
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    determined
    I've also heard of some people getting benefit from tiny amounts of carnitine. If someone is hypothyroid that would definitely be worth trying. Your strategy (and caledonia 's) would definitely save me a lot of money. I will look into muscle testing at some point, but I don't feel like dealing with it now. I didn't realize exposing a capsule to air would make a difference.

    I set out many of my supplements a week in advance so they are exposed to some air I guess. I still experienced start-up from methylfolate after Jarrow's B right changed their formula and added methylfolate. That was certainly a shock! I had no clue what methylation or even methylfolate was.
     
  18. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I would just like to add that I'm taking my B12 in liquid sublingual form, four times a day. It often helps with absorption to take supps in smaller doses throughout the day, instead of a big blast once a day.

    I'm also taking l-carnitine fumarate FWIW.
     
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I read somewhere that while absorption of B12 is generally very low in the gut for higher doses, the absorption rate of B12 in the gut is much higher for very low doses so you might actually be absorbing a decent amount intrinsically. Hip posted the article in a thread. I don't really feel like digging it up right now.
     
  20. mominmo

    mominmo

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    Lotus97 thanks for the info on Potassium Chloride. I'm really hoping I may only need to take lots for a couple of months when red blood cell replenishment should be mostly done. It's too soon to have a victory party but taking 10000 Jarrow diminished the deficiency symptoms (burning mouth, hands, feet) to almost unnoticeable levels for the first time in months. The symptoms began returning when I neared 24 hours since taking it. I would have taken some this morning, but was going to be away from home and didn't want to be running to the bathroom if low potassium symptoms were a problem. I took 10000 again today and will probably take 10000 again tomorrow morning. I don't know why I'm afraid of taking a lot. My symptoms got worse the less I took! BUT I will need a few more good days to be sure this was the problem for me. My gelatin capsules for making my own potassium chloride caps should come today and I should be able to control the hypokalemia. I hope you get to feeling better soon.
     

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