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repairing with B12 without overmethylation?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by boo85, May 23, 2013.

  1. boo85

    boo85

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    is it possible to repair with b12 without having to put up with overmethylation?

    I know I need B12 to repair my body and brain, but the methylation is just getting too much.

    If I (hypothetically) ate the same amount of B12 each day, but got it through natural sources, such as fried liver, would that prevent or slow down methylation?
    helen1 likes this.
  2. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    It would probably help to describe what's too much a little more. How much potassium are you taking? That will be one of the biggest factors in how much suffering you have.

    I use the term "start-up" symptoms to refer to the problematic symptoms -- what amounts to the combination of potassium deficiency (that is inevitable for many people who need to take m B12 or mfolate, etc), and the nerve repair that goes on (often a buzzing, tingling, brightening, itchiness, etc.). "Hypermethylation" is a term that's used on here, but it has no objective definition and so can cause confusion, esp since its used in the experimental research environment with animals with specific meaning.

    But it's understandable people will use that term to describe what does feel like it's "too much". There's a reason it feels that way, and it's not because you don't need to take B-12, it's because you do.

    If I (hypothetically) ate the same amount of B12 each day, but got it through natural sources, such as fried liver, would that prevent or slow down methylation?

    If you have a problem with absorbing it from food, then it won't help to eat liver everyday. There's pretty much no getting around the start-up symptoms, which are a sign that your body is deficient. Importantly, once you get through the initial adjustment, things greatly improve within weeks and pretty soon all of the symptoms are gone. If eating liver everyday was enough for your body's needs, you would only be putting off the symptoms to a future date, when for some reason, you get tired of having liver everyday!

    Easier to try potassium to allieviate the symptoms.
    Lou likes this.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    The absorption rate for B12 in the gut is low compared to B12 taken sublingually. You mentioned in another thread that you had a problem with methylcobalamin. Maybe you could try taking hydroxocobalamin sublingually instead if you're only getting the hydroxocobalamin injections once a week. Hydroxocobalamin is better tolerated by some people.
  4. boo85

    boo85

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    I think it is overmethylation because I feel anxious, paranoid, hyper sensitive senses (especially smell), mood changes, and just generally not being myself. It's really hard to get through.

    Potassium is a different issue all together. I think I have that under control - when I take b12 practically the only foods I eat are potassium and I take potassium salt.

    lotus, are you able to take hydroxy b12 under the tongue? So instead of injecting it, you just put a few drops in your mouth?
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Pretty much everyone here takes hydroxocobalamin, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin sublingually (under the tongue or between the lower or upper lip and gum) as it's much better absorbed that way. Tablets work better than drops though as far as absorption. All three types of B12 are available in tablets. With Perque's hydroxocobalamin tablets you need an X-acto knife if you want to cut it into smaller pieces. You can get one either on eBay or Amazon or a local art and crafts or hobby supply store. If 1/4 of a tablet taken sublingually is too much you could just swallow it (take it orally). Then gradually increase your dose orally. And then try taking 1/4 tablet sublingually again.

    This is from Rich as far as why B12 is needed to be taken sublingually or intravenously (and in higher than normal doses)
    helen1 and LaurieL like this.
  6. boo85

    boo85

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    thank you lotus. I feel like the overmethylation might do permanent damage to my brain...

    What supplements should I take along with b12 to help reduce overmethylation?
  7. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi,
    I just read your first post...the low B12 symptoms are better now, but the new symptoms do sound like overmethylation, or excess B12.

    There are many people who only need monthly injections to heal. It may be better to take a break, and reduce the dosage and frequency.

    I take Niacinamide,( it's a non-flushing niacin, B3), to help overmethylation symptoms. It's very calming. I usually take it at bedtime, but also during the day if I need it. I take 250 mgs. at a time, but for some, 50 mgs. works fine. Others may need more.

    Even though there are folks here who take huge amounts of B12, there are many who respond better to very small dosages, 50-250 mcg. of a sublingual daily.
    helen1 likes this.
  8. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Those are the exact symptoms I get from taking methylfolate and they are all alleviated with enough potassium gluconate. Without enough potassium, all of those symptoms come back in a matter of hours.

    I don't consider this "overmethylation".

    I am taking a miniscule amount of mfolate, about 50 mcg or less. How is 50 mcg "overmethylated"?

    Some people are incredibly sensitive and there is a reason for that. I get the same extreme response from folinic acid because I am able to convert it. Backing away from mfolate or folinic to instead take folic acid is not the solution to coping with start-up symptoms. Even at this tiny dosage of mfolate I have had benefits that I could never get from folic acid.

    Taking enough potassium to offset the feelings of having "too much" is key to being able to stay on a protocol for people who are sensitive.

    Food potassium is not enough. I thought I had it under control also, but I did not.

    Many on here taking potassium are taking over 1000 mg/day.

    How much are you taking?

    However, if you are already getting hydroxy shots weekly, it may not be worth the effort of taking methyl B-12 on top of that. You could consider waiting until the shots are only once a month.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Hydroxocobalamin works similarly to niacin (and niacinamide) in that it uses up methyl groups/SAMe which then reduces methylation. This is partially why it's better tolerated by some. I think another reason it might be better tolerated is that the conversion to methylcobalamin probably happens gradually rather than hitting you all at once. I'm not sure if there are other reasons besides the two I mentioned as far as why it's tolerated better. Some people have a shortage of methyl groups (sometimes referred to as undermethylators) and they do better with methylcobalamin (rather than hydroxocobalamin).
    Valentijn likes this.
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This is from dbkita. I agree that simply supplementing with extra potassium isn't going to necessarily solve all your problems
  11. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    boo85

    Can you post a link for where you got your defintion "overmethylation" please?

    Do you have your 23andme results by any chance? Good to post them in your signature if you do have them so we can all try to understand this methylation treatment better.

    With a genetic test, your potential for success may be improved. I'm not trying to give advice; just gathering information.

    Jarod
  12. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    dbkita was taking huge dosages of numerous different methylators simultaneously, which is very different from what we are talking about here.

    As he says: "That being said overmethylation is NOT generally the province of b12 generally since even the methyl b12 variant has a very short half-life."

    Given those two points, it is important to probe for whether enough potassium is really being taken to alleviate the symptoms, or whether, like me, a person is hesitant or afraid to take a lot of potassium -- which is very understandable given all the warnings from all directions about it -- and simply has been unwilling to go far enough with that.

    At the least, anyone taking B-12 needs to be taking the other Bs as well to balance things out. I'm not sure that's happening here. So there is no need to rush to reject mB-12 in place of hydroxy when the various issues that we already know will lead to problems -- not taking other Bs, not taking enough potassium, etc. -- are not yet addressed.

    Better to suggest someone back off and start with a better balance of factors than to push away methyl B-12 altogether.

    What is the evidence for this? Is this something Rich or Fredd said?
    cph13 likes this.
  13. Diana S.

    Diana S.

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    /
    Dr. Nancy Mullan, a peer of Dr. Amy Yasko, says that no one should suffer side effects from taking methylation supplements. They want you to reduce your supplement intake until there are no negative effects. From there, you can work up slowly. Dr. Mullan, in a recent webinar, said that adults tend to be much more sensitive to supplements then children. She recommends starting a supplement with only the amount that fits on on the tip of one tine of a fork. If that's still too much, mix it with water and apply it to the skin. Niacin, usually in amounts as small as 30mg, will slow down methylation per Dr. Ben Lynch but overall, I think you should lower the amount of methylfolate you take.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  14. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    I agree with taking it slow and carefully and use lower amounts if one feels overwhelmed.

    Does Dr. Yasko or Lynch recommend taking potassium, or point out that a potassium deficiency may happen and may be the cause of the sufferiing?

    Last I saw, Dr. Lynch was asking someone how they knew they got low potassium, and didn't seem to even believe that was a factor. I got tested and I saw that it went very low. Another person on here has also tested their potassium very carefully and is reporting on that now, showing clearly that it is going down with methylation. Low potassium should not be a reason to stop taking methylation supplements when taking potassium will correct those feelings of suffering.

    Having worked with children, I can easily see how anyone working with children with autism would likely be looking for ways to avoid any side effects leading to them being unwilling to continue taking the supplements. It is hard enough for an autistic child to cope at all, let alone with taking a supplement that could lead to low potassium.

    That's a different situation from adults without autism who may have decades of nerve damage to repair.
  15. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Would their even be any b12 left in liver that's been fried?
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Yes, and he was also taking 9000 mg of potassium.
    I'm not convinced that an extra need for potassium is a sign of "healing" and neither was Rich
    As you know, I have suggested a somewhat different approach to treating the methylation cycle partial block than Freddd has suggested.

    When high dosages of methylfolate and methyl B12 are taken together, the cells are no longer able to control the rate of the methylation cycle, and it becomes overdriven.

    One result of this is a rapid buildup of folates in the cells, because of the rapid production of tetrahydrofolate by the methionine synthase reaction.

    Tetrahydrofolate is readily converted to the forms of folate needed to support DNA and RNA synthesis, and this releases cells from a block at the S phase of the cell cycle.

    They rapidly start dividing, and this produces a strong demand for potassium.

    As Alex has noted, it has been shown that the intracellular potassium levels are low in CFS (likely because of an ATP deficit at the membrane ion pumps, due to mito dysfunction, in turn due to primarily to glutathione depletion), so there is no reserve there.

    The result is that the plasma level of potassium drops, and that accounts for the tachycardia.

    Note that another effect of overdriving the methylation cycle is a further drop in glutathione, as less homocysteine is available to go toward cysteine synthesis.

    There seem to be more and more people who are exhibiting effects of overdriving the methylation cycle from taking high dosages of methylfolate and methyl B12 together. I do not recommend this approach.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    Adreno and Rich have both talked about hydroxocobalamin using up methyl groups/SAMe. This is from Dr. Ben about niacin also using up SAMe/methyl groups:
    One has to keep in mind that methylation is dynamic and one can shift quickly from under and overmethylated – in a matter of an hr it is possible – or less – especially if utilizing potent nutrients such as methylfolate or methylcobalamin.

    We have to keep in mind that there may be other mutations on board – such as COMT. Niacin speeds up COMT which is one reason why it also may be useful. If one speeds up COMT, then things like dopamine and epinephrine get broken down faster. Niacin also is a ‘sponge’ for methyl groups, namely SAMe, because SAMe is required to metabolize niacin.
    This is from Rich about the pros and cons of hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin
    I had also considered changing the form of B12 to methylcobalamin. Some PWMEs do need to use this form, particularly if their glutathione and/or S-adenosylmethionine are very low. However, use of hydroxocobalamin is a “gentler” approach to lifting the partial methylation cycle block, and many PWMEs need such an approach. Use of hydroxocobalamin also keeps the cells in control of the rate of the methylation cycle, preventing it from being overdriven, which slows the rise of glutathione. So I have decided to stay with hydroxocobalamin as the first form of B12 to try. For people who do not get a response from the SMP within a couple of months, switching to methylcobalamin would be an option to try. Another option would be to try adding some adenosylcobalamin (dibencozide). However, I do not favor raising the overall dosage of B12 very much above 2,000 micrograms per day, and especially not when it is combined with dosages of methyfolate that are much above the RDA range of 400 to 800 micrograms per day. This combination can overdrive the methylation cycle and hinder the rise of glutathione.
    and also how some people have "a shortage of methyl groups".
    Some people have had good experience with methylcobalamin. It can be especially helpful if a person has a shortage of methyl groups
    Since Boo experiences the symptoms with only 250 mcg methylcobalamin I'm not sure what you mean by "back off".
    Maybe we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about methylation. There was a methylation study done on Dr. Neil Nathan's CFS/ME patients using hydroxocobalamin. Based on the results of the study I have no problem recommending hydroxocobalamin.
    http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    This is from Dr. Neil Nathan who ran the study and whose CFS/Fibromyalgia patients were used:
    http://www.prohealth.com/fibromyalgia/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=16138
    The Project Went as Follows

    • I took 30 patients (none of whom were part of the first pilot project), all of whom I had treated with Dr. Teitelbaum’s program, all of whom had made some progress (ranging from 30% to 70% improvement) but were still not where they needed to be health-wise.

    • All had their methylation chemistry measured prior to the start of the supplements(3), and all took the supplements for the next 6 months, while we measured their chemistry and they reported on their health status throughout. All patients took exactly the same supplements.

    • After six months, we individualized the patients’ treatment program based on their chemistry results, and continued to follow their progress and monitor their chemistry.

    The Results Are Exciting(4)

    Several important questions are addressed and answered:

    1. First of all, do we find that fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue patients do, indeed, have abnormal methylation chemistry? YES

    The initial methylation testing showed that:

    • Every single patient had abnormal results.

    • 83% started with low glutathione levels.

    2. Can we demonstrate that taking these supplements raises those numbers into the normal range? YES

    3. Does this rise in glutathione and SAM correlate with clinical improvement? YES

    We had our patients rate 5 important areas of function on a 1-10 scale. This included energy, sleep, pain, cognitive function (memory, focus, concentration, and “brain fog”), and overall sense of well being.

    We can demonstrate progressive improvement in all of these areas in most patients, over the 9 months of the study:

    Sleep improved from an initial score of 4.7 to 6.0, with 73% of patients reporting improvement.

    Energy improved from an initial score of 3.9 to 6.6, with 86% of patients reporting improvement.

    Pain improved from an initial score of 5 to 6.6, with 80% of patients reporting improvement.

    Cognitive function improved from an initial score of 5.0 to 6.3, with 73% reporting improvement.

    Overall sense of well being improved from 4.3 to 6.8, with 79% reporting improvement.

    4. How much better were our patients? A LOT!

    It took an average of 5 to 6 weeks before the supplements started to work, and we can clearly show that the longer patients stayed on this program, the better they got.

    • Not everyone got better, but the vast majority (86%) improved.

    • The average improvement was rated by our patients as 48%.

    • And notably, 27% reported so much improvement that they now felt essentially well! Several who had not worked in over 5 years were able to resume full-time employment without difficulty.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    boo85
    Most people are at least able to tolerate the starting dosages in Rich's protocol, but some people aren't (myself included). I'm not sure if you'll need to go to the lengths of Determined, but this is what determined did as far as doing things low and slow:
  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I don't want to discourage anyone from getting their SNPs tested, but it's worth mentioning that Rich didn't think SNPs were always a good indicator of how a person would respond to methylation supplements. I was kind of surprised to hear that since Rich seemed very knowledgeable on the subject. In the study he and Dr. Nathan conducted they tested everyone's SNPs and also ran everyone's Methylation Pathways Panel at 0 months, 3 months, and 6 months so he is basing his opinion on a lot of data. This is from August 2012:
    (I think this was before 23andme lowered their price to $99. Maybe he would have the same answer, but the methylation pathways panel costs $299 which is why I mention it)
    Jarod likes this.
  19. determined

    determined Senior Member

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    Hi all,
    I have been away for quite a while. I've been wanting to get back to update you on my progress with my methylation strategy (Lotus97 linked it a few posts up.....). I am still maintaining both my method/dosage of methylation supplements AND my improvement in stamina/energy. I would not say I have the energy/stamina levels of a normal person by any means, but I don't consider it my "limiting" symptom anymore.

    I remain convinced that my teeny, tiny dosage is more like an inoculation than a replacement dosage. I believe it's possible that the "almost homeopathic dosage" is modulating my immune response in some way.

    When I started the supplements, I had a significant increase in chemical sensitivity. I would say it's still higher than it was, but I consider this a reasonable trade-off. Pain is my worst problem now, often leading to taking medication, which makes me more chemically sensitive. And I really have to watch my stress levels or I can get VERY anxious.

    I still miss Rich so much. I guess that's the reason I haven't been around...... :(
    cph13 and L'engle like this.
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I first stumbled across your post a couple weeks (or months?) ago. I admit I was (and still am skeptical) that dosages that low can work. Even though I admit that I'm not yet able to tolerate the starting dosages in Rich's protocol (which some consider too low). Since the post I quoted was at least a year or two old I thought maybe you had gradually increased your dose.
    That's interesting because I was also experiencing pain, anxiety, and MCS before I made a recovery. The things that helped me the most I believe were getting a lot of sleep (10-11 hours for over a year) and limiting activities and sources of stress. I was also eating healthy and taking a lot of supplements, but I starting relapsing 6+ months ago and I'm still eating healthy and taking a lot of supplements so I think sleep (and also limiting activities and sources of stress) were the most important.

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