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Removing Glutamate from Brain with GOT/Oxaloacetate?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Ema, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Over the past few months that I've been struggling through Valium withdrawal, I've been curious as to why I might be having such horrible symptoms.

    I've basically come to the conclusion that I think I had high GABA levels to begin with rather than low levels. It seems that high levels of GABA cause paradoxical panic and anxiety when boosted further and that has certainly been my experience. Valium made me feel overly stimulated big time and even the herbal GABA supps (and GABA itself) have made me feel worse for the most part.

    When I look back at my old urinary neurotransmitter testing, I see that my GABA levels were in fact high...and so were my glutamate levels.

    So I've started looking at things to lower glutamate. I've gone back on a higher dose of B12 as well but I came across this research below which is a bit old now but very interesting. It talks about using the enzyme GOT to remove excess glutamate from the brain. Now, strangely enough, this enzyme is measured on a typical CMP and since the Valium withdrawal, mine has been elevated for the first time ever. I wonder if it is trying to remove excess glutamate from my brain?

    It also talks about using oxaloacetate to lower glutamate levels in the brain...wonder if anyone has ever tried this using a supplement? It's called BenaGene and it is expensive as usual. It looks like it might be possible to use NAC as well which would certainly be cheaper.

    Any thoughts?

     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
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  2. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Sounds like it might be worth contacting them, since there's a patent involved. Just want to be sure that the expensive stuff on the market is the same stuff that they were using for this research, and not some ineffective knock-off.
     
  3. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Dogtorj has info on glutamates. Tc .. x
     
  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Ema I don't know anything about this product. but I've had an interesting experience, might be of some use to you. At some point when I was in a very intense detox mode, my body wanted a lot of oxalates. I use self-testing for my supps and food. Suddenly wanted extra carrots, tahini, anything w/ oxalates. So I added tea to my regular footbaths. I'm not drinking tea any more. I used green or rooibos, as that's what I have on hand. This went on for a few days. Since then, once in awhile, if I've had some indication of detoxxing something.

    Someone on a thread in the last weeks made a connection to oxalates that sounded like it might answer my question. I can't find it now. However, I searched all sorts of terms and never found anything that told me why this was happening. It seemed to me that body wanted oxalates to bind to something it was excreting.
     
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  5. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi @ahmo . You may want to pose your question about oxalates on the yahoo trying low oxalate forum. I can't eat high ox foods so I've never run into someone intentionally eating these. Tc. X
     
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  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    What are the Valium withdrawal symptoms you are experiencing, @Ema? Increased anxiety? If so, the potent and non-pharmaceutiocal anti-anxiety supplements detailed here may help. I think these anti-anxiety supplements may be lowering glutamate by reducing the brain inflammation that releases lots of glutamate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2014
  7. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    The only thing that I know that can lower Glutamate levels relativly to GABA is resveratrol. Also high Glutamate levels relativly to GABA is a sign of excitotoxicity.
     
  8. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Why not just use NAC?
     
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  9. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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  10. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I did mention trying NAC and would likely do that first because of the price. But I've taken NAC in the past and never really noticed anything from it which is why I wondered if anyone had tried the oxaloacetic acid as an alternative.
     
  11. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Thank you, @Hip. I did find your list helpful and trialed a lot of those supps. I did find NAG helpful though (as you mention) I worry a little bit about feeding Lyme.

    Now my anxiety has lessened significantly but my main problems are dizziness/OI, migraines and sensitivity to light and sound. I think a lot of that may be excessive glutamate.
     
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  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Your idea of using oxaloacetic acid to scavenge for glutamate in the blood, and thereby reduce brain glutamate, is a very interesting one @Ema.

    I found these studies/reviews on using oxaloacetic acid to reduce brain glutamate:

    Brain to blood glutamate scavenging as a novel therapeutic modality: a review
    This review mentions that oxaloacetate, pyruvate, glutamate-oxaloacetate transaminase, and glutamate-pyruvate transaminase are all blood glutamate scavengers.
    Scavenging of blood glutamate for enhancing brain-to-blood glutamate efflux
    This study found that a mixture of 1 millimolar pyruvate and oxaloacetate decreased blood glutamate levels by 50%. (I calculate that you would need a dose of 8.5 grams of calcium pyruvate to achieve a 1 millimolar concentration in the blood, assuming 100% absorption in the gut).
    Blood glutamate scavenging as a novel neuroprotective treatment for paraoxon intoxication
    The effect of blood glutamate scavengers oxaloacetate and pyruvate on neurological outcome in a rat model of subarachnoid hemorrhage

    This study found that in rat subarachnoid haemorrhage (a type of stroke) neurological performance was significantly improved in rats treated with oxaloacetate or pyruvate.

    It is interesting that these studies say that pyruvate is also a good blood glutamate scavenger, as well as oxaloacetic acid / oxaloacetate. You can buy pyruvate as a supplement (as calcium pyruvate), and it is quite cheap.



    Sources of Oxaloacetic Acid Supplement:

    The cheapest I found oxaloacetic acid is here: Benagene (oxaloacetic acid 100 mg x 30) £19.71 (£20.21)

    Other more expensive sources:
    BenaGene at iHerb (oxaloacetic acid 100 mg x 30) £22.05
    BenaGene at Amazon (oxaloacetic acid 100 mg x 30) £25.11
    Bulletproof Upgraded Aging Formula (oxaloacetic acid 100 mg x 30) £30.01
    Oxaloacetic Acid
    powder 25 grams £142.08


    Note: 3-carboxy-3-oxopropanoic acid = oxaloacetic acid
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
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  13. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I wonder if the heat stabilized part makes any difference or if it is just marketing? Both the original Terra BenaGene and the Bulletproof one mention this whereas the cheaper AOR form does not.
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I think the added vitamin C is the stabilizer.

    On the Bulletproof Upgraded Aging Formula page, it says that "Vitamin C is not just a filler–it’s a key ingredient. Vitamin C acts as an electron acceptor, stabilizing the oxaloacetate and preventing it from turning into pyruvate."
     
  15. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I'm not sure.

    I found this (but of course they would say their own version is better!)

    http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article47017.html
     
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes I think you may right, thermally stabilized may mean something other than a vitamin C preservative. In any case, this page detailing the AOR BenaGene product does say it is thermally stabilized.



    By the way, have you seen this thread, Ema: Rocephin shots

    Two people on that thread said they had near complete (but temporary) remission from their ME/CFS neurological symptoms (brain fog, etc) within a day or so of having injections / IV of the antibiotic Rocephin (ceftriaxone). This made me very curious, and after a bit of research, I found out that Rocephin potently boosts gene expression of the brain's glutamate transporter EAAT2, which is the main glutamate transporter, responsible for clearing the bulk (90%) of the excess glutamate from the brain. This study found Rocephin increased glutamate transporter EAAT2 expression by 3-fold.

    My theory is that these two patients got temporary remission from ME/CFS neurological symptoms due to Rocephin significantly ramping up the glutamate transporters. I am going to be trying Rocephin injections myself soon, to see if I can replicate this result.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
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  17. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Very interesting about the Rocephin. Seems like a good thing to try!

    My LLMD suggested Rifampin and Levaquin for me next but both of those have cortisol issues. Rifampin might be a better option right now.

    Keep me posted please!
     
    Hip likes this.
  18. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Any thoughts on Campral for glutamate lowering purposes?
     
  19. invisiblejungle

    invisiblejungle Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting this Ema. It's a very interesting approach and I'm definitely going to try it.
     
  20. invisiblejungle

    invisiblejungle Senior Member

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    Hi Hip,

    The last source you listed is a chemical supplier. Do you have any experience ordering from these types of companies?

    I always wondered how they operated (legally), since they seem to sell pharmaceuticals as well (although at exorbitant prices.)
     

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