Relevance of Wessely quotes related to Coyne's critique of PACE

[worldbackwards]

"You find a genuine quote from me saying "ME is all in the mind" and i owe you a bottle of wine" says Sir Simon.

It's like a game of "not touching you", isn't it.

 

[Kati]

INVITED REVIEW The act of diagnosis: pros and cons of labelling chronic fatigue syndrome

MARCUS J. H. HUIBERS1* AND SIMON WESSELY










sounds very much like it is not all in the head.

Thank you, it made me easy to tweet those quotes and share them as #SimonSays.

 

[chipmunk1]

Thank you, it made me easy to tweet those quotes and share them as #SimonSays.

to be fair i don't know if these paragraphs are SW or the other author but he has his name on this publication and offers a download on his website and you get a pretty good idea what they are talking about.

Barsky describes four mechanisms by which this process of symptom amplification is mediated (Barsky & Borus, 1999): the belief that one has a serious disease; the expectation that one’s condition is likely to worsen; the sick role; and distress that comes from daily life problems and major life changes

the need for a formal diagnosis that drives them, but the search for relief, belief and understanding, something most doctors fail to see (Reid et al. 1991). Finding a label that fits one’s symptoms may bring that relief and legitimacy, especially if the label is a biomedical one, free from the stigma of psychiatric illness

Diagnosis can provide a refuge that preserves self-esteem and protects from (or takes away) stigma and the feeling of guilt. Diagnosis offers a socially accepted reason for failure to cope, especially if all miseries can be pinned on that disease

For fatigued patients in an acute or early phase, it may be more appropriate to postpone an official diagnosis of CFS because the label may stimulate chronicity, rather than a focus on possible solutions

Finally, it should be noted that our conclusions are primarily based on common sense, in the absence of a sound evidence base

In the absence of definitive data, and in the expectation that such definitive data will never appear, our final judgement is that it is acceptable to make diagnoses such as CFS, provided that this is the beginning, and not the end, of the therapeutic encounter.

can anyone read this publication and not believe that CFS is anything other than a psychiatric illness?

 

[barbc56]

I wouldn't be surprised if James Coyne might find these quotes. But just in case I think sending him any quotes with citations is more prudent at this point in time instead of posting them ourselves.

His reputation as a scientist and skeptic means he'll insist on an rigorous evidence. Some of the quotes may not stand up to scrutiny as they haven't in the past. Quotes taken out of context could be used against us.

We just need to make sure we cross all our ts and dot all our eyes and I think he is doing that very well.

Barb

I'm not saying patients should never voice opinions but in this case, I think discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[TiredSam]

How about not letting Wessely turn this into a bet of a bottle of wine over one quote?

 

[TiredSam]

Don't mean to sound grumpy, but isn't it falling into the trap of allowing him to trivialise the matter? He's a sly psychoquack who'll mess with your head anytime you let him. Bets for a bottle of wine are something that friends and civilised people do. He is responsible for decades of horrendous abuse on an industrial scale. He can keep his wine.

 

[Large Donner]

How about not letting Wessely turn this into a bet of a bottle of wine over one quote?

How about asking him if he abides by the WHO and Department of Health in the UK directive that it is a neurologically coded disease and if he is qualified to treat it accordingly.

 

[Large Donner]

He can keep his wine.

Have you got any suggestions where?

 

[TiredSam]

How about we bet him his knighthood and his career that he's been deliberately lying and abusing ME patients for years to boost his own ego and status, without regard to the thousands of lives he's ruined?

And yes, I do have somewhere in mind for his bottle of wine as it happens.

Sorry, I'm ranting. I'll stop.

 

[SOC]

Don't mean to sound grumpy, but isn't it falling into the trap of allowing him to trivialise the matter? He's a sly psychoquack who'll mess with your head anytime you let him. Bets for a bottle of wine are something that friends and civilised people do. He is responsible for decades of horrendous abuse on an industrial scale. He can keep his wine.

I admit this whole bottle of wine thing made me uncomfortable too. SW is a sneaky...er... fellow. Either he has some underhanded manipulative plan in place with this bet (and we're falling into his trap) or he's completely delusional about most of what he himself has said over the last... how many?... years. Either possibility is disturbing. I have no ability to deal effectively with master manipulators, so I can't figure this situation out, but it has left me with a very uncomfortable feeling that this is ultimately going to go bad.

 

[Large Donner]

Never mind the bet over wine Simon lets have that live stream PACE debate with Tuller you backed out of. You will need all the wine you can drink if that ever happens.

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

The bet over a bottle of wine reminds me of the one dollar bet in Trading Places - helps if you've watched the whole movie:

 

[TiredSam]

I admit this whole bottle of wine thing made me uncomfortable too. SW is a sneaky...er... fellow. Either he has some underhanded manipulative plan in place with this bet (and we're falling into his trap) or he's completely delusional about most of what he himself has said over the last... how many?... years. Either possibility is disturbing. I have no ability to deal effectively with master manipulators, so I can't figure this situation out, but it has left me with a very uncomfortable feeling that this is ultimately going to go bad.

Well of course there is the very attractive image of him publicly having to hand over a bottle of wine and admit he's wrong which will have us all scurrying to find the quote. But that's never going to happen, even if such a quote is found. He planted that very attractive fantasy image in our minds for a reason. To waste time and energy? To make the whole thing just about a quote instead of about the PACE trial? I don't like the fact that we are reacting to a task that he has set us. I'd prefer it if we dictate what happens next, and he can react, or not, and it makes no difference either way because the truth will out.

 

[Large Donner]

I admit this whole bottle of wine thing made me uncomfortable too. SW is a sneaky...er... fellow. Either he has some underhanded manipulative plan in place with this bet (and we're falling into his trap) or he's completely delusional about most of what he himself has said over the last... how many?... years. Either possibility is disturbing. I have no ability to deal effectively with master manipulators, so I can't figure this situation out, but it has left me with a very uncomfortable feeling that this is ultimately going to go bad.

I think one has to be careful he doesn't try to lure someone like Coyne into a false or misquoted claim and then go for a libel route to shut him down completely. No doubt this would prompt another 5 page spread in the Times with the same old narrative.

His remarks do sound a bit like, "go on I dare you".

 

[Kati]

I think one has to be careful he doesn't try to lure someone like Coyne into a false or misquoted claim and then go for a libel route to shut him down completely. No doubt this would prompt another 5 page spread in the Times with the same old narrative.

His remarks do sound a bit like, "go on I dare you".

i get the sense that Prof Coyne is his own person and stands up for what he says. i have a lot of respect for him.

 

[Large Donner]

i get the sense that Prof Coyne is his own person and stands up for what he says. i have a lot of respect for him.

Yes I understand Coyne stands up for what he says. My comment...

His remarks do sound a bit like, "go on I dare you"....

...was referring to Wessely. One also has to understand UK libel processes and how corrupt they can be. Basically he who has the most money and lawyers wins. Oh and it helps your chances of winning if you are doing the governments bidding.

Not sure how it would work on the basis of where the host site of the comments was based though.

I doubt Coyne would be easily fooled into saying you said, .....XYZ....... as a direct quote if he couldn't directly attribute it to him but I'm just saying. There's also the SMC that can spin another 5 page spread on "poor Wessely" anytime.

 

[Aurator]

How much closer to saying it's all in the mind do we need to get?
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Quotable_Quotes_Updated.pdf

Or this:
"I will argue that ME is simply a belief"

 

[Kati]

Yes I understand Coyne stands up for what he says. My comment...



...was referring to Wessely. One also has to understand UK libel processes and how corrupt they can be. Basically he who has the most money and lawyers wins. Oh and it helps your chances of winning if you are doing the governments bidding.

Not sure how it would work on the basis of where the host site of the comments was based though.

I doubt Coyne would be easily fooled into saying you said, .....XYZ....... as a direct quote if he couldn't directly attribute it to him but I'm just saying. There's also the SMC that can spin another 5 page spread on "poor Wessely" anytime.

It's pathethic. i hope more professionals with tenure and leverage can speak up about horrible science that has been going on for 3long decades.

 

[Esther12]

How much closer to saying it's all in the mind do we need to get?
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Quotable_Quotes_Updated.pdf

I'd make sure that you read them in the context of the paper that they are taken from.

Valentijn tried to take quotes with links to full papers in this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/simon-wessely-quotes.21025/

 

[Sidereal]

How much closer to saying it's all in the mind do we need to get?
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Quotable_Quotes_Updated.pdf
View attachment 13484

Actually, very few academic psychiatrists including Wessely would consider mood disorders to be "all in the mind". They have a significant biological component. So this quote wouldn't get you very far I'm afraid.