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Relevance of Wessely quotes related to Coyne's critique of PACE

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by eafw, Nov 4, 2015.

  1. eafw

    eafw Senior Member

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    Please note the following discussion has been split from the following thread --http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/dr-james-coyne-tackles-the-pace-follow-up-paper.40864/

    Is there anyone who has got through the spam filters on Coynes blog that could post this for him ?

    http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Quotable_Quotes_Updated.pdf

    Wessely is getting all pally with him, they're betting each other bottles of wine (yeah, glad you're having fun there chaps) "You find a genuine quote from me saying "ME is all in the mind" and i owe you a bottle of wine" says Sir Simon.

    We know he's a slippery so-and so, and will try and get out of it by saying that he didn't use that EXACT phrase but some quotes are on record and referenced. From the above document:

    “Suggestible patients with a tendency to somatize will continue to be found among sufferers from
    diseases with ill-defined symptomatology until doctors learn to deal with them more effectively”


    ETA the classic:

    “The description given by a leading gastroenterologist at the Mayo Clinic remains accurate: ‘The average doctor will see they are neurotic and he will often be disgusted with them’

    Lots more, and probably worth Coyne reading it to give him a bit more background

    ETA2, I'd like to see Wessely held to account for every one of those statements he makes in the mea document. Maybe they could be tweeted one a day with some suitable hashtags
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2015
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  2. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    As I'm sure @Esther12 would agree we do ourselves no favours by using quotes out of context!
     
  3. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Well - all quotes are out of context I guess, but @eafw I'd be wary of posting quotes that you haven't seen the context for. Maybe they are accurate - from memory I think that the first one is not misleading, and maybe the second one is?
     
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  4. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    Sorry to tag you on this but I seem to remember that you had made a similar point previously.
     
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  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    There's at least one very badly out of context quote in there. Not a good source, unless you want to go through and find the accurate ones.
     
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  6. eafw

    eafw Senior Member

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    How are they out of context ? The context is the mea document I link, which has references for each quote. It is a useful document for anyone new to this and with an interest in the history

    more thanks to valentijn's thread

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/simon-wessely-quotes.21025/

    Given the clear ethical imperative against lying, what can be left? I suggest the solution is to say little. Is it imperative that the patient be told their illness is truly "all in the mind"? I suspect not.
    Wessely S. “To tell or not to tell”: The problem of medically unexplained symptoms. In ; Ethical Dilemmas in Neurology (eds Zeman & Emanuel), WB Saunders, 1999, 41-53
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
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  7. eafw

    eafw Senior Member

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    Would your thread be a better source ?

    ETA, that quote I picked from your thread where he says "all in the mind" seems to have a sound enough context and is exactly what Wessely is claiming he didn't say.
    Maybe someone could post the link to that document directly
     
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  8. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    Yes, the context is given and a full citation and hyperlink. I also excluded any ambiguous statements where they were generalizing about what is said in the field, unless they explicitly endorsed those statements.

    But my Wessely quotes page doesn't have a lot from Sharpe, White, etc. If you're looking for something from them, it might be worthwhile to go through the other quotes page to check accuracy of some that sound good.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
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  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    It has the "undeserving sick" quote, even though the context clearly shows he was disagreeing with that characterization.
     
  10. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    No need to apologise at all. Did I sound narky? If so, I'm just frazzled from trying to keep up with PACE news.

    Think others have responded to quotes questions.
     
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  11. eafw

    eafw Senior Member

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    OK, you meant one of the quotes in the mea doc, not one on my post

    No, I was specifically looking for something from Wessely to give Coyne that he could use to meet Wessely's twitter challenge, and give him more background and context as to who he is dealing with and what has been said.

    This document at least should be a start.

    http://www.simonwessely.com/Downloads/Publications/CFS/110.doc
     
  12. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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    did SW make that statement? if yes that would be worth a barrel of wine.
     
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  13. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    Again, out of context.

    There are plenty of horrible quotes from them which are accurate. No need to spin the innocuous ones.
     
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  14. eafw

    eafw Senior Member

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    Then the mea need to pull or seriously revise that document at the link above.

    However, as you say plenty with full context such as the other one given, where he states quite clearly he is talking about people with ME

    scenario 1 "Madam, your illness is called hysteria" ... scenario 2 "You do not have ME, you may have something called CFS, but even then I do not believe your problems are physical, and I think you are depressed".

    "So it is all in my mind, is it doctor?" says the patient threateningly. The correct answer from our truth telling neurologist would of course be "yes", followed by a plaintive "but psychiatric disorders really are genuine illnesses", but by that time the doctor will be addressing an empty room, since the patient may well have left in disgust.


    Wessely S. “To tell or not to tell”: The problem of medically unexplained symptoms. In ; Ethical Dilemmas in Neurology (eds Zeman & Emanuel), WB Saunders, 1999, 41-53
     
  15. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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  16. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    Not at all - I just didn't want to suggest it was you who had talked about out of context quotes if I'd got it wrong.

    I seem to remember the 'average doctor' quote was a rhetorical device Simon used to illustrate the negative attitude the medical profession had to 'MUS's' and why his more enlightened input was so valuable (sic).
     
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  17. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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  18. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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    INVITED REVIEW The act of diagnosis: pros and cons of labelling chronic fatigue syndrome

    MARCUS J. H. HUIBERS1* AND SIMON WESSELY


    sounds very much like it is not all in the head.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
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  19. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Why not just send him the damn article and let him read it himself.
     
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  20. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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