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Relation between B vitamins - what can be taken with what?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Enigmatic, Oct 11, 2014.

  1. Enigmatic

    Enigmatic

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    Hopefully this is the correct spot to ask this question. I've searched and not found an answer to this question here already.

    I've been recommended to take a B Complex supplement but I find that I do not tolerate this well (Thorne B Complex). I'm OK for a day or two but then feel off and don't sleep well. I stop taking it for a few days and improve.

    I'm working at taking individual B supplements as I believe I need to take them and have a need for B1, B2 and B3.

    I'm OK with Methylfolate so I don't believe it's this and I also take B12 as Methylcobalamin and Dibencozide Coenzyme.

    I've read that the reason the B complex doesn't work well for some is due to the body not being able to absorb all of the vitamins at the same time and this has an impact on B2 levels so I want to avoid repeating this taking them separately (thread referencing B2 protocol by dog-person).

    I've also read that "B1 inhibits B3 absorption. Biotin inhibits B5 absorption" by @Vegas . I've not found any firm guidance anywhere about taking them separately and was wondering what the experiences are and if I'm missing something that has already been posted here.

    I've taken some Benfotiamine and just started with 9mg of Coenzymated B-2 as a sublingual. I'd like to start adding in some B3 but would like to know at what point I should take this given how it can affect methylation?

    The B3 capsule is 100mg. Is this a good starting point or should I split the capsule and take a smaller amount?
     
  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    I keep hearing toxicity reports with vitamin B 6 sometimes even with P 5 P so I do not take it. Supplementing all the ones except for b6 doesn't seem like a good idea to me either. For this reason I just take the Methyl b12, Methyl folate, Adeno b12, and B2 as needed because higher doses of methyl folate inhibit b2 absorption. I really do not know if taking methyl folate, and methyl b12 alone will cause deficiencies of the rest as they are metabolized differently. The only thing I ever heard about was the b 2/ methyl folate issue. I have veggie and fruit capsules that contain a lot of micro vitamins and minerals, as well as just try to get the rest from my diet as much as possible. I don't know if this is a good idea or if people are absolutely supplement the other b vitamins with the methyl supplements but I haven't read too much literature saying it was a necessity. I have no idea about the rest myself and have had a hard time finding it, hopefully others can chime in with what they may have found.
     
  3. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Hoarder of biscuits

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    It's possible that you're taking some of them too late in the day. I can't take B vitamins after 2 p.m. or they will keep me awake. Try taking the largest dose in the morning, then a smaller dose with the mid-day meal. You are taking a very good brand (Thorne) but maybe your timing is off.

    Some say that taking a small dose of niacin at night is OK because it will help with sleep, and I've found this to be true for me. That is the only exception I've found to dosing early in the day.

    BTW, there is a new vitamin called PQQ that shares some properties with the B vitamins:
    http://www.swansonvitamins.com/heal...inone-brain-health-anti-aging-supplement.html

    I find that PQQ helps with energy, and I only take it before 2 p.m. Several supplement manufacturers make it and I find the Swanson brand (in capsules) is as good as any. Source Naturals makes a tablet form of PQQ and since the 20mg dose is the best buy, I can cut those tablets in half if I just want a 10mg dose. At 20mg/day, it takes me 2 to 3 days to feel the effects kick in.

    PQQ is more expensive than your everyday B vitamin, but to me it's really worth it.
     
  4. Enigmatic

    Enigmatic

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    Thanks @Martial. I am supposed to take B6 as part of the Pyroluria treatment but I only saw increasing levels in the blood and don't believe it was being absorbed. I was taking as both P-5-P and Pyridoxine Hydrochloride but have since read with the 23andme results I have, I shouldn't take Pyridoxine Hydrochloride.

    For now, I've stopped taking the P-5-P as I didn't feel it was helping. I've also read that it needs B2 so for now will focus on taking the B2 to build that up and will try and add the P-5-P back in later.

    I have a lot of digestive issues and the Ulcerative Colitis I have is currently in a flair so I'm struggling to get a lot of the goodness out of foods hence dependency on supplements.

    I'd like to say the B1 and B2 are helping but it is early days and I've seen good results before then crashed again. I'm just trying to avoid a situation where I create a different deficiency with what I'm taking.
     
  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @Enigmatic
    Do not underestimate the cofactors such as potassium, magnesium, zinc.

    If you take a very high dose of one vitamin it will increase the need for its cofactors and there is a cascade effect on the other vits. So pay attention to the fine tunning between B vits and cofactors otherwise you will end up needing higher amounts of one just because your are taking too much from another ....

    High B3 will inhibit methylation, but can be useful when you are overmethylated.

    Freddd says that B1, B2 and B3 should be kept around 30mg each otherwise you will need larger amounts of potassium. High potassium doses call for an increase in magnesium.

    High B6/P5P doses require high magnesium doses.

    Avoid the vicious circle...

    izzy
     
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  6. Enigmatic

    Enigmatic

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    Thanks @CFS_for_19_years.

    I was taking the B Complex with my breakfast and my other B's with my lunch; well before 2PM.

    I will try the Niacin at night. I am keen to include Niacin as it helps reduce Copper which I have too much off with the Pyroluria.

    What is considered a small dose?
     
  7. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Hoarder of biscuits

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    I can't say what would be considered a small dose, as what works for one person may be too much for another, but you could experiment with this.

    Here is one sleep aid that has 100mg of niacin, 5mg of B6 and 1mg of melatonin in it. The tablets are big enough that you could cut them into quarters to titrate the dosage:
    www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Melatonin-1mg-Tablets/dp/B000638PFI

    I take this along with 2.5mg sublingual melatonin as regular melatonin does nothing for me.
     
  8. JalapenoLuv

    JalapenoLuv

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    Never take b complex when eating egg white. The white contains avidin which binds to the biotin in the b complex, preventing absorption.
     
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  9. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    You should be seeing a doctor ongoingly for Pyroluria. It is pretty important to address the amount of b 6 and zinc you need based on the levels of pyrolles in your urine testing, without adequate b6 and zinc you won't methylate correctly but if you do too much it can be toxic at the same time. Try some VSL 3 probiotics for the Colitis its prescription based but one of the most potent gut restoring things you can use, it is pretty common to be used in treatment for it as well. Sorry to hear about that too, that is a pretty gnarly thing to deal with. I had people I know who got it from extended antibiotic use for Lyme disease.
     
  10. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    You might be interested in this study treating fatigue in Ulcerative Colitis and Crohn's with high dose Thiamine
    http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2011.0840
     
  11. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland What did you mean re: that increasing Potassium requires increasing Magnesium? I am pretty limited in my knowledge of this stuff but was recently put on a prescription potassium supplement without increasing my Magnesium dose and now having worse cardiac symptoms. Can you explain if there is a ratio? Thank you in advance!
     
  12. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    @Gingergrrl I am not her but potassium and magnesium need to be raised together as they can be antagonistic to each other. The amount of magnesium total though is only perhaps 1000mg a day where as potassium can be pushed a bit higher. Get some trans dermal magnesium that should have you covered. How much potassium are you taking right now?
     
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  13. Enigmatic

    Enigmatic

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    @CFS_for_19_years Meant to reply earlier and say thanks for mentioning the PQQ. I’ll put this on my list to research and look at. I want to get everything back on track and under control before trying to add in something I’ve not had before.

    Thanks for the link to the Melatonin product. I’d rather not add anything new in at this point plus when my CFS was first diagnosed I was given Melatonin to help me but it seemed to make my sleep much worse - I was wide awake after taking it. My sleep currently is hugely improved after taking Methylfolate and B12.

    @Gondwanaland, I do take the other cofactors you mention. I have to take Zinc Picolinate due to the Pyroluria as other forms of Zinc are not absorbed. Last blood test showed improved Zinc. I take Magnesium daily with my evening meal and also drink Potassium Gluconate at times through the day along with some Coconut water as well. I also take L-Carnitine.

    I had a theory at one point that perhaps the high blood levels of B6 had caused the onset of my Ulcerative Colitis as I’d been free of it for two years. Despite all the good stuff I’ve done (changed diet, removed stresses etc) the UC came back for no obvious reason.

    Not sure if it was the high B6 as stopping it made no difference/improvement; in fact it continued to get worse.

    Perhaps it was the Methyl Folate and the B12 that were high and caused a shortage of B1, B2, B3 etc. I can’t find any link to these causing UC but have found stuff saying people with UC are low in them.

    My UC symptoms have improved but I have significant inflammation and whilst I try to reduce the dose of Prednisone the symptoms get worse again. I had been going great guns of the Freddd protocol.

    In the last few days I’ve added in 9mg of B2 and I am feeling an improvement in energy if nothing else.

    I will add in a small dose of B3 and see how I go. The capsules are 100mg so I will split them. The Thorne product had 80mg of B3 so I will aim for as close to 30mg for now to start with.

    @Martial, I am seeing a Dr for the Pyroluria and will revisit adding B6 back in. Waiting on new blood results. I’ve looked at VSL 3 but not sure if it is available here in Australia. I have other probiotics and have really found that Colostrum helps get symptoms under control more than anything else. That is part of a protocol I found here.

    I’m hoping to get this all back under control. I’d made huge progress to the point when I was able to discuss returning to work then the UC hit with a vengeance and undid all the progress, probably took me further back. It’s now about three weeks since symptoms started to improve and I’m only just starting to feel close to normal but need to come of the Prednisone completely.
     
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @Enigmatic in the first place, please download and read the document "Start low and go slow" linked in PR member caledonia signature.
    Research "ulcerative colitis and low magnesium" on google.
    In my experience, each and every one of the B vits will increase the need for magnesium, especially B9 and B6. If you increase them you will have to increase magnesium accordingly. I wrote about it here and here. I think the purpose of supplementing B6 is to improve magnesium metabolism - so you've got to have it!

    Freddd says B1, B2 and B3 will increase your need for potassium (which in its turn will increase the need for margnesium)

    Sometime ago I read that dr. Klinghardt advises against supplementing magnesium orally for Lyme people and only transdermal form should be used. Well, I don't tolerate Epsom salts (high ammonia?) and the B vits made my Mg deficiency worse, so I just had to load Mg orally (I haven't experimented with magnesium chloride yet). The highest dose I tolerated was 600mg spread in a day. Right now I am only taking 2x 100mg.

    Unfortunately my knowledge is limited too and the little I know comes from self experimentation and googling.
    I know that magnesium is needed to put potassium inside the cells. So if you don't increase magnesium accordingly you will be peeing lots of potassium - and I am sure it will affect your heart too.

    I like to recommend this link about magnesium because it contains all about it, including warning about overdoing it:
    http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html
    And this one about synergists and antagonists:
    http://www.acu-cell.com/acn2.html

    Hope this helps

    izzy
     
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  15. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    Hi @Martial Right now I am taking this Magnesium supplement from Jigsaw brand from my ND called Magnesium SRT. She recommended it initially b/c it is a slow release Mag and all other kinds bothered my stomach. But this was the beginning of the year and I've done a whole protocol to fix my stomach (which worked!) so I may be able to tolerate other kinds of Magnesium now and really want to try b/c I am having a lot of cardiac and autonomic problems.

    I realized last week that my Jigsaw brand Mag has all sorts of other stuff in it including Methyl-Folate and B Vits that I did not know! In total it is around 300-400 mg Mag per day which I guess is too low for me since you mentioned 1000 mg. I am going to get another Mag as soon as I can without all the other ingredients and am investigating all the other options including Mag IV's, injections, nebulizer and the trans dermal gel that you mentioned.

    If I have already asked you this, I apologize!!!, but what brand and amount of transdermal gel do you use? I am trying to gather all the info on Mag to compare.

    Thanks again!
     
  16. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    Izzy, thank you and I looked at the links and I never knew that you needed Mag to use the Potassium and this was really good to know.
     
  17. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Well make sure you don't over kill with the magnesium either, again 1000mg is the max and best amount you can take daily. Assuming there is no underlying kidney issues. I use a product brand named health and wisdom called magnesium oil. I usually just put it over the sore areas of my body and let it air dry, using enough of it to get around the amount I need each day.

    It lasts a pretty long time for the price as well which is very nice. 12fl oz. and every ounce contains 3162 mg. The only thing I do not know and am curious about is the actual rate of absorption. I have been trying to put 1000mg on my skin to be absorbed but do not know how much I am actually taking in.

    I would use other things for it but magnesium isn't great to take orally for lyme, and I don't want to over do it with combining epsom salt baths and the like either. Now if I could just figure out if I am causing deficiencies in other b vitamins from methyl folate/Methyl b12 aside from B 2 which I already take it would solve a lot of my questions too haha

    I would try some himalyan pink sea salt to help with the autonomic issues its really good for you too! It is also important to try and balance out the three; Sodium, Magnesium, and Potassium because you do not want to get too low on one from using the others.
     
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  18. mmorell63

    mmorell63

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    I have been using Turmeric and Plexus probio5 and biocleanse for Ulcerative Colitis, seems to be working very well, alot less horrible symptoms.
     

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