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Reduced Eschericia Coli causes fatigue?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by M79, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. M79

    M79

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    Today I got the results of my stool test. Luckily most things seem to be fine. In a way I am not amazed, I have been on sugar, milk and gluten free diet for years. Tho I do eat some sugar in form of berries and fruits.

    In a nutshell I am missing Eschericia Coli and Enterococcus species. E. coli low and enterococcus species almost unmeasurable low. The papers I got tell me that missing those two can cause production of endotoxines, enterotoxines and zytotoxines, which can cause inflammation in your GI-tract.

    I was somewhat low on lactobacissuls species as well, barely on green side.

    From here I read that "low levels of E coli result in foggy brain, fatigue, constipation, food intolerance, food cravings and fatigue." Reason : antibiotics, bad diet, birth control pills and antiacids.

    Well I have had all of those symptoms for years after having tons of antibiotics and antiacids. I was also on birth control pills on the same time and had pooooooor diet :nervous: I am ashamed...

    I could not find much of enterococcus except if you have high levels then you have other symptoms. (high levels of enterococcus (a form of Lactobacillales or lactic acid bacterium - please see Wikipedia entry on Lactobacillales) are associated with symptoms of headache, arm pain, shoulder pain, myalgia, palpitations and sleep disturbance.)

    I seem to be intolerant to many foods and react to many different way. I assume some of my fatigue indeed is because of toxins. Like I can feel when I have eaten something no no, I feel more achy and my muscles feel like rubber and all the strenght is missing. Now on b12, which I do love even tho I am not bff with it yet, I have managed to get rid of the worst brain frog and I do have a bit more energy. I sleep better and pee less. Tho I cannot tolerate high dosage nor for too long. For example with B12 I cannot tolerate even small sips of coffee for long. I get really sweatty, get high temp and feel miserable and weak after having some coffee, but no nauseoness as before. After a while feeling hidious I start to feel better and can eat something and then feel "good".

    I tried to introduce milk back to my diet, but that was a big mistake. Having few spoons of ice cream during 5 days made me so ill. I felt so anxious that I thought I am going to die. It was physical anxiousness that I have had years ago before I quit using milk and gluten. My stomach was upset, but not painful as usual when I consume dairy products. I felt ill approximately for 2 weeks after some ice cream. Sigh. But that can also come down to unbalanced bacteria?

    But now it all starts to make sense, sort of. I have weird intolerances, but I do feel I react to every food a bit(hives, rash, couching, sneezing, itchy ears and eyes, stomach pain, loose stool, feeling tired, achy, dizzy and so on, it can be any of these symptoms), but that could be the toxins.

    Then comes the next issue. How does one fix this? On the page I linked the doctor recommends for example to eat figs, hazelnuts and chickpeas. And mutaflor capsules that you can make by yourself, but it sounded a bit weird for me. I am a bit "hypocondric" sometimes :cautious:

    But I could buy mutaflor from pharmacy without a recipe so maybe I should try. Tho I am always scared of trying these :aghhh: But mutaflor with some probiotics maybe? Any recommendations for sensitive person?

    I have noticed that eating blueberries everyday , well technically bilberries over here in Finland which is also many times healthier than blueberry, has huge impact. Bilberry is full of flavonoids/antioxidants, vitamins and so on, so I think maybe that works well with all these. It is good for my stomach and makes me feel better, maybe since it reduces oxidative stress? But I think it also brings good bacteria for your gut.

    So any ideas, help, suggestions? I would be so grateful.
     
    cph13 likes this.
  2. MCRobbie

    MCRobbie Senior Member

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    M79 I think it can be VERY difficult to interpret these stool tests and much of the time they are over interpreted and people read too much into the results. These stool tests are still in their infancy stages and can give hints and clues but often nothing more. It would be good to know what test you ran.

    With many of these tests which test for E coli they usually do it by culture, the E coli and Lactobacillus. But just because they take your stool and put it in a petri dish and it doesn't grow a lot of E coli or Lactobacillus doesn't mean necessarily that you have low levels, they may have just not cultured well. Ive read a lot about the gut biome and though Dr Myhill site has lots of great information her information on the gut is a little dated.

    What research is finding is that there are many different 'templates' for a healthy biome, there is variance, and though there are critical species of bacteria, not every healthy biome has to have that bacteria to be a health promoting biome. E Coli is actually a very complex species and they are discovering that there are many different strains of E Coli potentially in the gut some of them clearly Pathogenic and Im not just talking about the famous Ecoli 0157:H7 which can make someone very ill and kill in cases.

    Lactobacillus is a highly overrated bacteria and gets far too much press and is barely a commensal bacteria, meaning that most strains of Lactobacillus do not reside in your gut as full time residents most are rather transient species that move through your gut when you consume them via fermented foods, and then pass on through.

    Lactobacillus species do have immune modulating effects and can be health promoting and its one of the reasons why fermented foods have positive health effects in many, because of the immune modulating character of various Lactobacillus species, but as far as whether or not there are certain levels in ones gut as detected by a stool test, I don't put any stock into that result whatsoever because its just not an important player as far as a commensal species, at least this is what the latest research suggests.
     
    adreno and Crux like this.
  3. MCRobbie

    MCRobbie Senior Member

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    Trying to 'fix' the gut is incredibly difficult I have found as my gut is just a mess in so many ways and I have been working on it for years. One great site that I have gotten a lot from though its not the easiest read is Grace Liu's site at AnimalPharm. She writes a lot on trying to heal the gut through "weeding seeding and feeding", meaning killing pathogenic bacteria, seeding the gut via probiotics etc and feeding the gut with the right gut biome supporting high prebiotic foods. http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/.

    But the gut is incredibly complex and not easy to return to health. Personally I think the gut might be the source of my ME/CFS the root cause though I cant prove this and I likely have many things going on as most of us do.
    But Im working hard on my gut and just started a second series of Fecal Microbiota Transplants. We'll see how it goes........
     
  4. MCRobbie

    MCRobbie Senior Member

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    I think the best stool test on the American Market is Genova Diagnostics GI Effects 2200 test. Its still lacking because all of these tests are lacking but it is the most comprehensive. You could also use the Ubiome test or the American Gut Project which are essentially (at least American I cant remember Ubiome) biome research projects which are soliciting the participation of citizens around world to send in their fecal samples (for a fee) and they will send you back a report on what your Biome looks like. These reports are also limited but they can give you slightly different data than a 'clinical' stool test like Genova's or Metametrix.
     
  5. MCRobbie

    MCRobbie Senior Member

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    Oh wanted to say last, If you find any plant foods that make your gut feel better, eat them, eat lots of them. They are likely feeding your biome in a healthy way and doing alot of other things too possibly.
     
  6. M79

    M79

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    Thanks MCRobbie. Unfortunately I cannot get an appointment to a doc that could order me the stool test from Genova. First of all the lines over here for those doctors are long, from 6 months to 2 years and second of all it costs a lot, the test panel with doctors appointment.

    The test I took measured
    • florastatus : consistensy and ph ( everything ok, ph 6 (5.5-6.5)
    • e.coli, proteus species, klebsiella species, enterobacter species, hafnia alveii, serratia species, providencia species, morganella morganii, kluyvera species, citrobacter species, pseudomonas species, enterococcus species ( low e.coli and basically no enterococcus species)
    • bacteroides speices, bifidobacterium species, lactobacillus species, clostridium species, clostridium difficile (everything ok, except lactobacillus sorta low )
    • candida albicans, candida species, geotrichum species, molds (everything ok, no candida, no mold )
    • fat, water content, protein, fiber, sugar ( too much protein and too little fibers in stool, otherwise everything perfect in range)
    • alpha-1-antitrypsin, calprotectin (both in range nicely, so no real inflammation)
    • pankreaselastase, bile acids (pankreaselastase good, no bile acids)
    • sekretorisches igA (in range)
    Overview : Instabiles darmmilieu, flora-index 3 (1-5 light dysbiosis)

    About slightly elevated protein residue was said that in normal pancreatic elastase it has not pathogenic significanse. At most nutritionally error should be excluded. In dyspeptic complaints a support of the digestive functions can be drawn with the help of phytotherapeutic substances in the preamble.

    Also said : Enterobacteriaceae and enterococcaceae shows disturbed microbial milieu etc.

    But if the results of stool tests are sorta this meaningless then I feel like giving up. I can tract down my issues to time when I had to take a lot of antibiotics, was on birth control pills (which I had to stop since they made me even more nauseous) and then issues got more and more worse after getting Nexium and other antiacids.

    My diet is already sort of strict and been this way for years, and I just dont have energy to try something else. I eat millet, quinoa, buckwheat, oat, fish, chicken, red meat, berries, fruits (not all), vegetables(not all), nuts , seeds and that is about it. Potato I can eat sometimes. Every day I eat the same since I dont have other choises.

    I am tempted to try Mutflora capsules, read about it and it is used for IBS and they say it works, ie one person said she can now eat some sugar and drink coffee and spices etc. without getting upset stomach . Dunno. I feel so beaten. When eating is constant battle every day, for 15 years now. Like I told the doctor, I only eat because I have to, I dont feel hunger. Life sorta lacks something when food and eating is a battle and something uncomfortable. Or more so how you feel afterwards. :( I just want to give up.
     
  7. MCRobbie

    MCRobbie Senior Member

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    Well M79 I wouldn't be discouraged because of the fact that these stool tests aren't super reliable or thoroughly illuminating. Don't be discouraged on that score. If you KNOW your gut is messed up you don't need a stool test to tell you that though they can be helpful to spot pathogens, bacteriums and parasites mainly. As I say fixing the gut is HARD hard work and Ive been working on trying to fix mine for years.

    I did take Mutaflor for two months and it didn't help me at the time but my gut was just at its worst when I took it and nothing in that moment could have turned the tide I don't think. Its worth trying though if you can get and afford it as I know its helped people and its a quality probiotic which I don't put much stock into many of them because most are lactic acid bacteriums and you can get more bang for your buck consuming fermented foods than taking those probiotics.

    I think with the gut you have to experiment experiment experiment and do it carefully, take notes, keep a log/journal of what youre doing. It seems like youre on a lot of grains and have been for years. Why not experiment with coming off them. What I found for myself personally is that, I HAD to experiment, and if something isn't working for my gut, I need to keep moving and keep experimenting and making changes.

    Another piece of advice, do your homework, do your research but I would suggest anyone with gut issues consider Fecal Microbiota Transplants. Im doing my second series and its very early yet but I am encouraged so far. Take a look at Grace Lius site Animalpharm. Fodmap/SCD/Gaps Diets. Lots of things to try. Raw milk kefir has changed lives on occasion. Not working for me but Ive heard many success stories. Don't give up, keep switching it up!
     
  8. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Hi M79 and MCRobbie, I read your posts with much interest. I too have been wondering about how accurate and significant the findings on the CDSA tests are. I had a Doctor's Data one done in early June and it showed:

    Under Expected/Beneficial Flora there was:
    4+ Bacteroides fragilis
    3+ Bifidobacterium spp
    1+ Escherichia coli
    3+ Lactobacillus spp
    NG Enterococcus spp

    4+ Clostridium spp

    Under Commensal (Imbalanced) Flora there was:
    3+ Alpha Hemolytic strep
    2+ Pseudomonas aeruginosa

    Under Dysbiotic Flora
    4+ Enterobacter cloacae complex

    I also had 2+ Candida.

    I took a lot of anti-fungals including high potency colloidal silver and grapefruit seed extract and feel the candida is now under control. I have also be taking various probiotics including VSL#3 and S. Boulardi, L Rhamnosus, L Reuteri.

    I still have a lot of brain fog however that I can't seem to clear. I did not have it while on the anti-candidals. The anti-fungals were harsh and irritated my urinary tract so I can't continue with those.

    I am not as careful re diet as M79 although I do try to eat gluten-free and casein-free. Lately I have been thinking about the resistant starches and including some. Not sure if they aggravate the brain fog however.

    I am considering getting some Mutaflor before Sept 1 at which time it must be ordered through a pharmacy. M79, did you try Mutaflor? If so, what effect?

    I have not found any information on the enterococcus that is so lacking. Apparently there is a probiotic for it to from Germany but I can't find it.

    The enterobacter cloacae can have serious strains but is apparently quite common. It is also associated with obesity - I am a bit overweight but not obese.

    I'd appreciate any thoughts or information you may have. If it weren't for the brain fog and some fatigue, I think I would be bothering much with these results. Thanks, Oci
     

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