Reduced diversity and altered composition of the gut microbiome in individuals with ME/CFS

[msf]

BMI can be a notoriously poor indicator of health, apart from in the sedentary. Many athletes are above 30 on the BMI due to muscle mass, and one would not say they are particularly unhealthy.

Just putting that out there.

B

I know, but in the study I posted it correlated strongly with LBP.

 

[Ben H]

I know, but in the study I posted it correlated strongly with LBP.

For sure, my point was its unfortunately not a predictor of health unless other measures are taken in unison. So that control at BMI 33 etc may be very healthy. Its a measure far over utilised for 'healthy' controls in studies, and it does my nut in.

I just feel it's an important distinction to make as it is surprising how many people see it as an 'ultimate' measure of health.


B

 

[msf]

It may be that people with a lot of muscle have higher levels of LPS, who knows?

 

[Ben H]

It may be that people with a lot of muscle have higher levels of LPS, who knows?

Well, there are studies that show increased gut permeability after exercise, so it would definitely be an interesting study. I would doubt it overall, for how LPS can make you feel, but yea who knows!


B

 

[msf]

Yeah, it seems unlikely, but then I don´t think obese people feel like they have ME, although I could be wrong (I´ve only got to a BMI of about 28 myself, so I just know that overweight people don´t).

 

[Ben H]

Yeah, it seems unlikely, but then I don´t think obese people feel like they have ME, although I could be wrong (I´ve only got to a BMI of about 28 myself, so I just know that overweight people don´t).

''Ive only got to a BMI of about 28"......the phrasing on that made me chuckle, whether intentional or not! Me too, at 28 also...


B

 

[msf]

N.B. I got to that by doing no exercise and eating a lot.

 

[Ben H]

N.B. I got to that by doing no exercise and eating a lot.

Well, when we cant do much, and we don't burn substrate efficiently.....

 

[M Paine]

What I'm dying to know, is what's causing translocation of bacterial components out of the gut.

It's very interesting that hsCRP is not elevated. Is that a new finding? Was the purpose of including that to provide evidence that this is not a typical IBS condition arisen from inflammation of the GI tract?

 

[msf]

Have at look at the recent KDM meeting abstract, his guess is as good as anyone´s at the moment.

 

[M Paine]

Do you have a link to that @msf?

 

[msf]

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/dr-de-meirlier-april-and-baff-iga-study.44919/

 

[Hip]

@Hip I believe that this could back the research that you have found suggesting leaky gut may play a larger role than expected.

I think you are referring to Michael Maes's research on leaky gut in ME/CFS, where he talks about the translocation of bacterial LPS into the bloodstream.

 

[msf]

Maes´s work was referenced in the paper.

 

[Mark]

What I'm dying to know, is what's causing translocation of bacterial components out of the gut.

It's very interesting that hsCRP is not elevated. Is that a new finding? Was the purpose of including that to provide evidence that this is not a typical IBS condition arisen from inflammation of the GI tract?

This rings a bell. I don't think they were trying to show this, it's just what they found, but I think they mentioned that it stands in contrast to IBS. Hope I remembered that right.

 

[alex3619]

What I'm dying to know, is what's causing translocation of bacterial components out of the gut.

Its been years since I looked into this, but like many things its a layered defence system. The gut lining itself is a barrier. The immune cells in the gut, I think, absorb the LPS and detox it. Then it gets to the liver via the porrtal circulation and the liver destroys it ... more immune cells. If those immune cells are under-functioning, or overwhelmed, then we can get LPS in the general circulation. It takes many failures to lead to this.

Now the gut lining repair is dependent in part on glutathione sensitive enzymes, the desaturases. They also have to replicate fast ... a high energy activity. What if the energy status of the gut lining is as bad as the rest of us?

 

[lansbergen]

What if the energy status of the gut lining is as bad as the rest of us?

Good question

 

[John Mac]

Medical Xpress have now covered the story

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-06-indicator-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-gut.html

 

[Adster]

Apologies if this is off topic, irrelevant or already posted, but chronic immune activation due to microbial translocation appears to be a feature in HIV patients too http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17115046

 

[msf]

I just noticed that the title of the paper seems to underplay the findings - any idea why that is?