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Reduce anxiety during overmethylation treatment

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by optimist, Jun 9, 2015.

  1. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    Cheerio good people from around the globe :)

    I started for some days taking 1 500mg Niacin, and then introduced 800mcg methylfolate (with a target dose of 3 200mcg). It gave me a crazy anxiety for two days, so all I got to was that single 800mcg dose. From what I hear it will take 2-3 weeks to normalize and to start getting better, and that seems highly impossible for me to manage. My doctor said that folic acid (also 3 200mcg) would probably be better as it is working much slower. But I should still expect anxiety from it.

    Now, my question is, as I know many of you have experience with methylation treatment:
    Do you know anything that can help bring the anxiety down?
    GABA is unfortunately a no-no for me. It works for anxiety, but for some strange reason, it blocks me from falling a sleep. That is, when I am just about to enter dreamland, my brain gets a big spasm that hurls me back into reality. Very unpleasant. The more GABA I take, the more brain spasms I get. If anyone knows why, and measures to counteract that, then GABA might be a viable solution :)
     
  2. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @optimist - Obviously it sounds like you started out with too high of a dose of methylfolate. Don't take any more until you calm down. @caledonia has provided some excellent information on methylation, including going slow, here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/caledonias-methylation-links.1744/ It definitely sounds like when you re-start, that you do so at a very low dose until you can find what works for you.

    Your doctor's wrong about folic acid. It can interfere with methylation and folate absorption. Folic acid is synthetic and a large percentage of people cannot convert it into a form useable by the body. However, it competes for absorption with folate, so folic acid can actually cause a folate deficiency in many people. You can read more about folate, and why folic acid can be so harmful here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/active-b12-protocol-basics.10138/

    Are you still taking niacin? I would spread it out over the day in smaller doses and see how you do. Also, I found for me that the most effective form of niacin is the kind that makes you flush. So if you're taking no-flush niacin, it may not work as well. Niacinamide did not help me with this, just regular niacin that cause flushing.

    That's too bad you can't tolerate GABA. You might try glycine, an amino acid which functions as a calming neurotransmitter. I use it for sleep (as well as l-theanine, which helps the brain produce GABA) -

    Cheers! :nerd:
     
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  3. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Why the high dose of niacin? I would think that would negate the doses of methylfolate, but that's just a guess.

    Did you start w/the niacin for a week or so, then add the methylfolate?

    As for anxiety, I've been dealing with that 'extra wired-but-tired' crap for years, and found the folinic acid helps a lot. Especially with sleep.
     
  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @optimist I employed a different strategy from adding niacin. When I got the wired, anxious feeling from Mfolate, I immediately put a MB12 in my gum, and it stopped the anxiety almost immediately. I wouldn't opt for folic acid.
     
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  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Basically what Mary said - too much too fast. Read my document called Start Low and Go Slow for ideas on how to manage starting. I would actually suggest starting with sublingual B12, then introduce methylfolate.

    Small amounts of niacin can be used as a brake in case you get methylation going too fast - there's no need to suffer for weeks if you make a mistake.

    If GABA is problematic, try theanine. Magnesium is also helpful for anxiety.

    If that doesn't work, you may be having CBS issues. You would then spend some time doing CBS treatment before reintroducing B12 and methylfolate. I had to do this.

    I have all of this information covered in my documents - see my signature link.
     
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  6. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    I agree with Caledonia and I highly recommend you read her document. Actually both of her documents. Her Roadblocks to methylation is also excellent.

    I too think it's better to start with B12 because folate without enough B12 in your system can cause neuropathy. Folate needs B12 to keep it in the cells where it is needed so another good reason to do B12 first.

    When you do introduce folate, many people need to start really small which means for some people literally a crumb which would be maybe 10 mcg.

    I don't understand why you took so much niacin... Was it to try to decrease the anxiety? To reduce methylation, you only need about 30 mg of niacin just so you know for future reference.
     
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  7. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    Wow, thanks for all the feedback. First off all, I must clarify: I meant that it would take 2-3 weeks with countinued mfolate before the desired effect kicks in and the anxiety get's relieved, not that I will have anxiety for all that time from one pill.

    I thought that was the point? To produce more methyl groups to bring the methylation cycle down?

    That's interesting! I suppose this has to do with MTHFR? I've been tested, and mine seem to work well, so in that case I suppose folic acid will work, no?

    No, I stopped a couple of weeks ago, but that's another story that I wonder if has got to do with me starting niacin and folate. I've been having headache, ringing ears, some times vertigo and photophobia for close to three weeks now. I've tried to stop most supplements, but it didn't help. So, it might have something to do with methylation, or the fact that I had a lumbar puncture some time ago.

    And, yes :) I've been using niacin from swanson and now foods and have had my fair share of redness :) *shivers*

    Glycine is part of my arsenal, but l-theanine is not. Thanks for that tips!

    I thought that was the point, to produce more methyl groups and bring the cycle down?

    Yes, more or less.

    So, none of the other B9s would work you mean?


    How much is that? I can get severe insomnia from MB12.

    What I just said to ahmo :)

    I forgot what CBS is...
     
  8. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Niacin doesn't produce more methyl groups, it does the opposite.

    Folinic works best for me for sleep and anxiety -- but some days I use methylfolate in small pieces as well. You might try taking the b12 first thing in the morning. I have heard that it can increase insomnia in some, but it is helpful for correcting sleep-wake cycle problems, but it's common to be stimulated at first by b12.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2305167
     
  9. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Read Caledonia's post above, and the links she provided - it's invaluable information and should answer all of your question.
     
  10. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    CBS issues?
     
  11. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    I know found the road blocks document and found out about CBS... I also have on and off painfull neck/shoulder muscles as described... hmmm
     
  12. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    Could CBS possibly also explain why I am getting anxiety from riboflavin (and it seems thiamine and molybdenum too...)?
     
  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    CBS is the SNP/enzyme at the top of the transsulfuration pathway. It looks like a "tail" coming off the bottom of the methylation cycle. This pathway eventually leads to the production of glutathione. If this pathway is not working correctly, you may have trouble tolerating methylation supps, and will not be producing glutathione.

    There is some controversy over what causes CBS to go awry - it could either be CBS and/or BHMT SNPs (or rarely a SUOX mutation) or mercury. There may be a buildup of sulfur and/or ammonia leading to inflammation which causes the anxiety/stress response. Things get clogged up at the SUOX SNP.

    The solution is to do a low free thiol diet and take molydenum and possibly some other supps for ammonia, depending on which theory you subscribe to. Moly is a co-factor for SUOX.

    Then once you have SUOX working and your sulfate levels are lowered, you should be able to tolerate methylation supps.
     
  14. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    Oh, yes - and I also get anxiety from L-Taurine...
     
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Enzymatic Therapies, 1mg. You could cut/crush the tablet for less.

    I also get anxiety from taurine, ALA, other sulfur products.
     
  16. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    Sorry, but what is ALA?
     
  17. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Alpha Lipoic Acid
     
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  18. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    CBS is a gene, not a SNP. And the SNPs tested on CBS have only been shown to cause problems when seriously down-regulated, with only beneficial effects when mildly up-regulated.

    If the CBS gene was somehow resulting in increased sulfur, it would result in increased glutathione at the same time, since CBS leads into both pathways. The switch for increasing one while decreasing the other would come further down the line.

    Avoiding sulfurous foods might result in decreased glutathione, and anything specifically slowing down CBS function would also likely reduce glutathione levels.
     
  19. optimist

    optimist Senior Member

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    I got anxiety and extreme fatigue/brainfog from molybdenum... Like getting hit by a train.
     
  20. jpmaguire2

    jpmaguire2

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    What dosage do you use on the folinic acid? I believe I'm overmethylated (wired but tired is EXACTLY me.) I'm planning on starting a folic/folinic acid + niacin regimen once I confirm with a SAM:SAH ratio test. Any idea on starting doses?
     

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