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Redox signaling molecules

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Ninan, Jul 25, 2016.

  1. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    Asea looks like a scam: It's MLM, expensive, called a fountain of youth and is supposed to help with almost all health issues. There are not a lot of peer reviewed studies (any?) and the label says only salt and water.

    Here is a study from Asea's own site that at least explains the theory, not sure if it's good though.

    Anyway I've been pretty desperate and heard some pretty amazing stories from people I trust. One of them detoxed lots, healed her liver and then got methylation working without protocol. So I tried, pretty convinced I was wasting my money. I took very little at first, and this is happening:

    Morning after first dosage (3 ml): Woke up with very oily skin and a zit between my eyes. (I only ever get them before my period and then on my cheek.)

    40 minutes after second dosage: Intense taste of metal, tasted like I'd eaten a truck.

    I've been taking it for about ten days now, slowly increasing to 10 ml. When I increase I notice more taste of metal and more oily skin. I've had a flare of candida that I attribute to this. Urine metal test shows high copper and I've needed to increase zinc and vitamin C according to symtomps. I notice increased thirst.

    I'm on a very low dosage, I was recommended 30 ml and 60 ml is standard but since I'm very ill I've been careful.

    There are a couple of threads on Asea here, among others Rich Vank asking about it. He seems to have found the idea interesting.

    There are lots of sceptics out there, most of whom haven't tried themselves but claim it's the world's most expensive salt water. Even people who are into alternative stuff seem to turn into sceptics when it comes to this. But what if it works? What if they have acctually done what they claim to do, like increasing glutathione by 500%? I know my body pretty well these days and this far I'm convinced it's not just salt water. Something is happening. And oily skin, breakouts and releasing metals might be something my body would do with more glutathione?

    Anyone else who defied their scepticism (and wallet) and tried this? Any other thoughts?

    (When I've asked in other places I've gotten a lot of ppl responding it's a scam. Evidence: Salt water on label and MLM marketing. Very scientific. So please don't write in this thread just to say that.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2016
  2. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Hoarder of biscuits

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    I tried ASEA water for a few months with no results other than a lighter wallet.
     
  3. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    Sorry to hear it. Heard some stories like that though most of them tried only for a month. Guess trying is the only way to know, too bad it's so expensive. My friend took it for six months without noticing much but when she checked her fatty liver it was much better. Months later, after stopping and starting again, she was much worse (no energy) for a few weeks and then her methylation must have kicked in. Much better, she even walks her dog now. So accirding to her story can happen even when you don't notice it. It seems our bodies start with different things, mine obviously kicking out metals.

    I'm not selling the stuff btw. I even payed extra not to become a "partner", didn't want to get involved. As with everything else it's probably not for everyone. I read that someone had been in contact with Dr Peterson and he had said it could be too intense for severely ill ME/CFS patients and that she should be careful.
     
  4. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    Thanks for posting. I remember coming across this product years ago. I was intrigued as Cheney's theories on redox seemed to best describe my energy problem. Indeed I believe most of my symptoms are connected to it. And as Cheney theorizes, I'm quite sure it factors into compromised cellular immunity.

    Yet methylating supplements always disagreed with me. Cheney's work also suggests this is what to expect for most methylation supplements in most people with this disease. That said, some seem to do well on them.

    The one thing that appears to help my redox is addressing terrain by diet; essentially consuming what some would call a less acidifying diet. Cheney has also suggested similar dietary changes to better redox. He's also looked into "structured water" along with other odd treatments and claims to be able to show via his echo terrain mapping that many of them improve redox status.

    I've tried a number of those products that "shouldn't" do anything, but actually do. None has continued to help in the long run but it has opened my mind to just about anything.

    It's a bit pricey but I think I'll give this one a go. Thanks.
     
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  5. junkcrap50

    junkcrap50 Senior Member

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    I've heard of this product. The MLM and rest of the business turned me off into thinking it's a scam. There may be some element of truth to the idea of redox signalling molecules, but I doubt anyone has created them as a supplement. There always seems to be a convenient gap in the explanation of the mechanism of how they work exactly. So, I believe this Asea is a scam, personally, but would love to be wrong and have been shown other remarkable, alternative medicine items to work I initially wrote off.

    One signaling molecule/product you should research, @Ninan and others, is hydrogen rich water or H2 water. It's basically hydrogen gas (H2) dissolved in water at a higher concentration than normal, above 1.5ppm. I've been meaning to write a long post about it, but haven't had the energy. The products and stuff out there does appear to make it seem like a scam as well (and almost all hydrogen water products are). However, a good supplement company I trust, Researched Nutritionals, came out with a H2 product which led me to investigate it more. Turns out there are a lot of scientific papers and studies from Japan on the subject. Here is a great review paper on the topic: http://medicalgasresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13618-015-0035-1 and more here: http://www.molecularhydrogenfoundation.org/studies/h2-review-articles/

    A fascinating discussion on the topic with simple, cheap home-made solutions can be found here: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/86247-hydrogen-water-as-a-much-cheaper-alternative-to-mk677/
     
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  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @Ninan
    According to this article and this article, Asea water contains hypochlorite (ordinary household bleach is 5% sodium hypochlorite).

    The hypochlorite in Asea water is proabably produced by electrochlorination, the process of creating hypochlorite by running an electric current through salt water.

    A very low dose of hypochlorite in water I think is considered safe, as a few drops of household bleach (5% sodium hypochlorite) per liter of water can be used for drinking water purification.
     
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  7. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    Asea definitely makes me question my judgement. If I was wrong about this, what else am I wrong about? Asea being a scam seems so obvious, it has all the traits. It raises questions like if they have really done this...

    1. ... why don't they do more RCT studies?
    2. ... why isn't there a huge hype about it?

    Answers to nr 1 could be all from bad judgement to the fact that bodies seem to react very differently. So maybe studie results aren't consistent enough. And 2, the fact that it looks so much like a scam might be the one thing that could keep people from trying and the news from spreading. Still strange tough.

    But it's not salt water and I've talked to a lot of people who seem to experience the same and most of them were as surprised as I am in the beginning. People I can't just write off. So, if it's not salt water, what is it? What's the chance they've done what they say they have done and what's the chance they have done something else that's not as good? I'm too brain fogged to read up but I'll continue using it and see what happens. I'm taking 15 ml now. Hope it works for you if you try it, @Dufresne
     
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  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    A good test might be to A/B it with salt water to see if it feels the same. If you have adrenal fatigue, salt water supplementation can be helpful as you will be losing sodium.

    That being said, some of the symptoms you're having sound like what you would get from mercury detox from a chelator - metallic taste in the mouth, flare in candida, need for more vitamin C and zinc.

    Need to be careful with this - if the chelator is not taken on a frequent dose schedule within it's half life, it can cause mercury redistribution instead of actually chelating it out, and in the end make you worse. See my signature link on Cutler mercury chelation info.

    If it is hypochlorite, that's like another version of MMS (Miracle Mineral Supplement) which was another multi level marketing product. I have a friend who tried MMS for a good while and in the end it ended up making her feel worse.
     
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  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Indeed. The original MMS is based on the oxidizer chloride dioxide, which is used in mouthwashes.

    Then MMS 2 uses the oxidizer calcium hypochlorite, which is similar to the sodium hypochlorite of household beach.

    Gargling with a very dilute solution of sodium hypochlorite (more diluted than household beach) was once recommended by the American Dental Association as an antiseptic mouthwash.
     
  10. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    I drink saltwater every day and this is nothing like it. Never had these effects, it just helps me with OI and stabilizes my adrenals a bit.

    Hard to say what the half life of Asea is, it's probably used up very soon after ingestion. And the glutathion? I guess that's the chelator in this case?

    Urine test last week said high copper. Guess it could be mercury too even if it didn't show. But copper could explain the problems I've had with needing more and more C and Zn to get my B12 protocol working. Seems logical that I need more of them now. I've also hade hormonal problems and they have gotten slightly worse on Asea. That and candida could all be copper, right? I've lived in an old house that might have copper plumbings and taken lots of B12 and folate which are supposed to increase copper uptake. HMT didn't show high copper but that could be because I've been taking loads of zinc.

    If I have both copper and mercury (and fillings) and Asea raises glutatione, can it be bad? The people I've asked who use Asea say it's not a problem since glutathione helps my body get rid of what it chelates. They say taking larger doses is better though. I haven't felt worse at all except from candida. Can raising glutathione, if that is what it does, be a bad thing?

    Cutler btw says Asea doesn't chelate. People in that group says the metal taste is from contamination and that Asea is just dirty saltwater. But then the taste should come right away, not after 40 minutes. Doesn't make sense to me, seems they are jumping to conclusions and haven't really looked in to this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  11. junkcrap50

    junkcrap50 Senior Member

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    I think @Hip is right, that it's just very diluted hypochlorite (or bleach) in salt water.

    The two links he provided above were very illuminating for me. It basically delivers a very small dose of Reactive Oxigen Species (ROS), which then signals or sparks your body to make antioxidants. It's the same mechanism as hyperbaric oxigen therapy (HBOT), ozone therapy, hydrogen peroxide therapy, etc. Those are 3 therapies with much more literature behind them and are fairly well understood. Asea just seems to deliver a different ROS signaling molecule, hypochlorite, as some believe.

    After reading Hip's links, I found some PDF's on Asea's website by searching google that I'll link below that gives some insight to what it is. It doesn't say exactly what the active ingredient is, but they claim to have independently verified that it does contain ROS. (Again, it comes from Asea and there's no stamp or certificate of authentication, so...)
    There's nothing slam dunk in those links, just that it shows they've tested for it's ROS content and shows it exists.

    So, if you believe in the mechanism of HBOT, hydrogen peroxide, and ozone, then I would believe in Asea too. That said, however, if it really is just bleach + salt water then it is WAY OVERPRICED! So that's a scam in and of itself! Plus, I don't know why they do MLM, likely because if everyone knew their secret, everyone would be furious.

    Well, if it's working for you, then that's great. I believe it, if Asea's really just ROS and triggering an antioxidant response. So don't despair and doubt yourself it others you trust and you yourself found it to work. The company just comes off as very scammy and suspicious, which is the reason I never tried the product. We all have to be suspicious of everything because of the snakeoil products out there and with our ongoing medical expenses.
     
  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    That sounds like something they would say, because they would claim that only ALA, DMSA and DMPS are true chelators.

    As far as the glutathione aspect, perhaps it's not making glutathione, but perhaps the antioxidants are causing glutathione to recycle better (from oxidized to reduced) and that increases the amount of glutathione available to rid the body of toxins (which sound like in your case that is copper and possibly mercury).

    Vitamin C is supposed to do that same thing, but you're already taking that, and not reporting the same effect.

    So maybe it is really increasing glutathione. You should also be able to increase glutathione with liposomal glutathione or S acetyl glutathione (to get it through the stomach), taking NAC (the precursor to glutathione), or glutamine and glycine (precursors to NAC). Or increasing methylation in general (as long as your CBS pathway is working correctly to make glutathione).

    Note that mercury can cause CBS/sulfur issues.
     
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  13. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    I've been on several forums that have been blitzed by ASEA scammers, in apparently well-rehearsed raids. They all seem to have been trained the same way. A common modus operandi is for Spruiker #1 to make a ridiculous claim (e.g. "The inventor of ASEA has just won the Nobel prize for Medicine"), and Spruiker #2 to chime in with, "That's amazing. Where can I buy some of this incredible stuff?")

    Requests for some science are met with website runarounds (links that lead to links that lead to links that lead nowhere), &, when you persist, hostility.

    Once exposed, the scammers soon move on to greener pastures: they never remain to argue their case. They apparently have no actual interest in the subject of the forum - e.g. pyroluria, methylation, etc.

    Now ASEA is getting more widely exposed as fraudulent, there seem to be successor products marketed the same way.
     
  14. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    I've been taking large amounts of C in the past and have had a taste of metals frome time to time. Didn't connect it but it could be related. Never like this though, it's strong and more persistant.

    I'm like @Freddd when it comes to glutathione supps -- they stop B12 from working for me. Not sure if the same is true for Asea since I haven't taken folate since I started. But if my body produces it's own glutathion it wouldn't be the same, right? Hope not.

    I've had effect from B12 but I think I still had some block. Didn't have this constant taste of metal then. My methylation is blocked now, seems I'm only up because of high cortisol.

    I'll look in to the CBS stuff, thanks.
     
  15. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    Do you mean Renu 28? It's their skin product line and yes, it's marketed the same way.

    Guess what you describe is one of the problems with MLM: Irresponsable sellers who don't care about anything but making money. I asked the woman who sells to me why (in the world) Asea would chose MLM if their product is legit. She said it's because it's a complicated product that needs explaining and guiding. Which is true but then wouldn't the need for educated sellers be even greater?

    If this product works, which I am beginning to think, it's really sad that it's marketed in a way that makes people (and potential benefiters) think it's a scam.

    Anyway I'm glad we had a serious discussion here. Thanks everyone for chipping in, especially @Hip with clarifying articles. I'll continue reporting what happens and we'll see if any sellers show up. And I'll keep an eye on the Nobel prize, it's in my hood anyway. :D
     
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    My guess is that ASEA could just be a very diluted version of ordinary household bleach.

    The active ingredient in household bleach is sodium hypochlorite, which has the chemical formula NaClO — in other words, it contains one sodium atom, one chlorine atom, and one oxygen atom.

    If you start with the ingredients of water, sodium and chloride (in other words, a water and salt mixture), which you say are the listed ingredients of ASEA, and you then pass an electric current through this water, you will produce very dilute sodium hypochlorite bleach. This electrical process of creating bleach from salty water is known as electrochlorination.


    The immune system actually creates tiny quantities of hypochlorite when it fights infectious pathogens. Ref: 1
     

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