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Reactions to Iodine (iodoral) and Armour

Discussion in 'Thyroid Dysfunction' started by drob31, Jul 10, 2014.

  1. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    An endo I was seeing said my TSH, T4, and T3 were technically in the normal range. T3 is at the bottom end.

    I checked bloodwork from a year ago before the worst of my symptoms hit me, and T3 is 81 (74-181). At that time the doc said I was normal. This was the best I felt in my life, however I still thought I had hashimoto's, but I had no antibodies present, or very little.

    In any case fast forward to now. 2 weeks ago, under the advice of my endo I began using Iodoral, 1 tablet a day. I also added in some tyrosine. This is when I thought I figured everything. I was starting to feel almost normal. I woke up one morning with consistent energy and immediately did some weight lifting, went the rest of the day with consistent energy, and couldn't even sleep until 1 AM. After a week, the effects seemed to be wearing off, although I cannot be sure.

    Again, under the advice of my endo, I kept taking iodoral, but added 1 grain Armour. I promptly began feeling hypothyroid, terrible, cold, no energy. Everything came back. I stopped it immediately the next day. However, symptoms continued to persist, even as I took Iodine. Hair loss started occurring, so I dropped the Iodine, then the hair loss slowed down. I can't tell which one of the two was causing this.

    I was taking iodine, 12.5 mg iodoral, ATP cofactors, 1/2 tsp celtic salt, and 200 mg selenium based on the STTM protocol.


    In any case, 1 week after stopping the Armour, I decided to try it again. I took 1 grain, and felt like I was on mars. I didn't sleep well that night, and for the last few days I've had terrible hypo symptoms. I was trying to have a good time with a friend but I felt horrible, I could not enjoy myself and felt very cold. The next day I woke up sick to my stomach. Now, 5 days later, my energy is marginally better. Today is the first day I did not wake up feeling cold, although this afternoon my hands went cold again. I do feel very warm in the middle of the night. The two changes I made yesterday were to do weight lifting and cardio (moderate), and I did not sleep that well. Sometimes when I don't sleep well I have more energy, which makes no sense.




    For the last two days my temperature has averaged 97.5, and 97.4 which is pretty bad.

    I originally thought I had an adrenal issue, which based on my lab results, I can't tell, but I now know for sure it's thyroid.


    I'm planning to try Iodoral again, I'm just scared it will cause the drastic hairloss. STTM seems to suggest hairloss is not from iodine, but from not having nessasary cofactors with the iodine, like selenium. There were 4-5 days I ate brazil nuts, so that may have been insufficient selenium.


    By the way, here is my cortisol saliva results:

    http://curezone.com/aa/?1067980


    I'm have an appointment with Dr Rind on August 4th. I'm hoping he may be able to shed more light on my situation.
     
  2. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Community Support Volunteer

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    @drob31 I am confused why you are taking one grain of Armour if your numbers were all normal and you do not have Hashimoto's? I take a micro dose of Armour (7.5 mg per day) b/c I have high Hashimoto's antibodies and my TSH was right on the border. My doctor also told me NOT to take iodine with Hashimoto's so at the time when I was still taking multivitamins (which now I don't) we had to look for a multi which did not contain iodine. It is interesting how different all the doctors are!
     
    katemelissa likes this.
  3. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    The numbers were within the normal range, but the T3 was at the bottom end of normal. This indicates either high rt3, or conversion issues, ie wilsons syndrome or euthyroid sickness as described by dr bruce rind, also known as hypothyroidism type 2 coined by dr. mark starr.

    Although the endo didn't allude to this and just wanted me to try stuff to see what happened on a trial basis. I'm pretty sure the endo doesn't know what's going on, hence why I'm going to see rind.

    I just got blood work taken for all thyroid tests, so I'll see if my thyroid anti body's are still low or now, but I don't think I have hashi's now. I think I have high rt3 for whatever reason, maybe adrenal related.
     
    merylg likes this.
  4. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Iodine can cause autoimmune thyroid problems to flare. I felt worse on iodine. Selenium made me really sick. Armor thyroid gave me energy for a few days then made me worse than ever for a week. So I haven't had much luck with any of those. I wouldn't keep taking them if they make you feel sick or hyped up and unable to sleep.
     
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  5. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Community Support Volunteer

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    @L'engle That's what I was told as well so I avoid iodine as my thyroid issues are autoimmune.
     
    L'engle likes this.
  6. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I just spent 260$ out of pocket for the most complete thyroid test from privatemdlabs. I also got CBC with testosterone / estrogen. Here are the results:


    [​IMG]
    My testosterone is really good. My WBC is really low. 3.0 (ref: 3.5-10.8)

    More recently I have noticed that I have allot of symptoms of pyroluria, so I will get the test done for that ASAP.

    Currently my average daily temperature is around 97.5 based on 3 measurements, using the Rind methodology.

    According to my bloodwork my thyroid is fine, but I have hypo symptoms. According to my 24 hour cortisol salva test my adrenals are okay, maybe.

    So the mystery continues...
     
  7. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    These are my cort saliva results btw:

    [​IMG]
     
    merylg likes this.
  8. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I should mention my current symptoms are lack of motivation, brain fog, poor short term memory, water retention, cold hands, feeling normal when the temperature is 90 degrees and everyone else is dying of heat. I also have eye sensitivity and eye floaters. The floaters drive me nuts, but I think they're more noticable because of the eye sensitivity. It's clear the T3 isn't being synthesized properly at the cellular level, but could this be caused by cortisol being too low, or too high? My testosterone is high enough that it should knock the high cortisol down a bit.

    I have been treating myself for adrenal fatigue for 3 months... lots of sleep, no caffeine, every B vitamin, C, adaptogens, etc.......

    If it really comes down to it I will start experimenting with isocort or get cortef through alternatives means...
     
  9. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    Please trh to read Dr Brownstein's book or videos on Iodine. I recall him saying people with thyroid issues xan feel worse for a bit because the iodine is pushing other things out of the thyroid like bromine, etc. His perspective might help you understand what is happening. I do not know about the no iodine and thyroid meds theory. All that he says is majority of us are iodine deficient and there might be a herx like reaction when firsg adding. Im not a doctor so highly recommend you read his tjoughts. He has some you tubes out yhere also. Hus name is David and he is from michgan.
     
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  10. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Thanks for the advice, Roxie. By the way I love your avatar, cute kitty.

    I would like to think it was a detox reaction, however I'm thinking about doing a few things first.

    #1 doing a ZRT labs iodine test to see if I'm really deficient.
    #2 increasing selenium to increase the amount of 5'diodinase which enzymatically removed an iodine atom from t4 to make t3.


    One thing I discovered is that I have really high RT3. my ratio is 14 to 1

    t3: 2.5 pg/ml
    rt3: 17.7 ng/dl

    From STTM.com

    "1.When biological stress is excessive, such as being on the inadequate treatment of T4-only or being held hostage to the lousy TSH lab test (both which keep you underdosed or hypo), your adrenal glands produce high amounts of cortisol to help you cope with ongoing hypothyroidism and lingering symptoms and conditions. The excess cortisol inhibits the conversion of T4 to T3, and instead produces even larger amounts of RT3, creating an RT3 problem.
    2.When biological stress is ongoing, your adrenals will eventually produce less cortisol (ask “adrenal fatigue” or “adrenal insufficiency”), dropping from high cortisol to a mix of high and low, the to all low. And those low levels can cause chronic anxiety, poor coping skills, paranoia, easy nausea, sensitivity to light or sounds, psychological issues, etc. When you don’t make enough cortisol, thyroid hormones can pool high in your blood. So your body responds by converting the T4 to excess RT3.
    3.When iron goes low, which is quite common in thyroid patients due to low stomach acid, your red blood cells become less plentiful (or you have enough, but they are weak and pale), and carrying thyroid hormones via your blood becomes inadequate, causing thyroid hormones to pool in your blood. The body responds by producing excessive amounts of RT3 to clear out the excess T4."
     
  11. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    By the way, based on my MVC and RBC numbers, my iron should be fine. Since I have sufficient red blood cells which are normal in size. This suggests I have enough Iron. So #3 is unlikely.

    I do not use thyroid hormone, so #1 is out.

    This leaves me with number #2. I have slightly lower than average cortisol in the morning and afternoon, but then high in later afternoon, normal at night... and I suspect it's much higher around midnight to 4 AM. Although I need to get another test done to prove this.


    I have a plan of attack I'll post in my next post.
     
  12. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Based on my cortisol saliva results, I need to strategically boost my cortisol in the morning, and have it stay elevated through noon, but then take another round of supplements that starts to lower it after lunch, and also before bed.

    Since high rt3 can cause hypothyroidism and hypothyroidism can cause the adrenal gland to overwork itself to produce cortisol and "compensate" for lower t3, which isn't able to bind to celluar receptors, but the cause for high rt3 to begin with was high cortisol, it's a vicious cycle.

    Morning adrenal protocol:

    2 dessicated adrenal (standard process)
    3 drenamin
    2 simplex-m
    10-20 mg pregnenelone
    1000 mg vitamin C, buffered (not in morning since C theoretically can lower cortisol)
    Jarrow B-right B vitamin
    (may add licorice root or holy basil)

    Morning thyroid protocol:

    225 mcg iodine from kelp (may increase over time)
    400 mg selenium (for 5'deiodinase enzyme) (may increase drastically to try to get the conversion to happen)
    20 mg zinc
    L-tyrosine makes me feel better, but since the body can make it on it's own, I'm scrapping it, may be too stimulatory for adrenals

    Note: my endo made an interesting comment about the standard process dessicated adrenal supplement. He said that while all active hormones have been removed, that he "knows some is still in there" because of peoples reactions. Suggesting that there is a little cortisol in them.

    After lunch adrenal protocol:

    500 mg phosphatidylserine
    500-1000 mg rhodiola
    1000 mg vitamin C, buffered
    B vitamin (may add separate panthothenic acid)

    Before bed Adrenal protocol:

    200 mg phosphatidyl serine
    25 mg diphenhydramine (bad for me, but helps me sleep)
    2 mg melatonin
     
    merylg likes this.
  13. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Ok, I just wanted to relay some observations to you folks...


    My protocol of rhodiola and PS seems to have an affect on my mental clarity and energy levels. I'm taking massive amounts of PS right now.

    I took 200 mg after lunch, then I decided to chew on (I was curious how the liquid tasted), another 500 mg. The liquid tastes good by the way. I'm using Natural Factors phosphatidylserine. At 700 mg, my mental clarity is fairly normal. Fatigue is about 80% relieved (I know this is a short term effect), but since PS and rhodiola help lower cortisol, this makes sense since my late afternoon cortisol 3 PM - 9 PM is abnormally high.


    Another thing I noticed when reading comments on amazon was that an adrenal fatigue sufferer noted that PS brought their temperatures back to normal. What this tells me is that people with adrenal fatigue often have hypothyroidism as well. This is something Dr. Rind notes. So what does this mean? It means people with high cortisol, or cortisol spikes produce way more RT3, which blocks receptor sites, and makes you go hypothyroid.

    The amazon post:

    "Ive been on an expensive adaptogen to reduce cortisol and was getting no where. But then I upped my dosage of PS and today for the first time, my temperature broke 98! It's been as low as 95.5. It'sa little expensive but believe me, you have got to get your cortisol levels lowered or you'll continue to be sick. I am taking 3 or 4 a night but my doctor said I should be taking 5 (I just can't afford it). My dad is also taking it for memory. It will help you get deeper sleep; another problem with cortisol issues. "

    http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Factors-Phosphatidylserine-Softgels-60-Count/dp/B000Z8ZRC8
     
    SickOfSickness and roxie60 like this.
  14. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    From STTM:

    "24-HOUR CORTISOL SALIVA TEST: An at-home test to evaluate your circadian cortisol levels at key times during a 24 hour period. Those will healthy adrenal function will have the follow results: 8 am: at the literal top of the range 11 am-noon: in the upper quarter, and often about a quarter below the top 4-5 pm: mid-range 11 pm to midnight: at the very bottom. A DHEA above midrange is good, but 8 can mean the adrenals are compensating for a problem."


    My values:

    6 ref 3.7-9.5 (needs to be higher)
    2.1 ref 1.2-3.0 (needs to be higher)
    4.2 ref 0.6-1.9 <--------Houston we got a problem!
    0.8 ref 0.4 - 1.0 <--- acceptable?

    Optimal values:

    8.5-9.0 (elevate cortisol with pregnenelone, dessicated adrenal gland, drenamin) (support adrenals with C, b vitamins)
    2.5-2.75 (elevate with drenamin, no preg or adrenal gland since I just need a small bump)
    1.5-1.7 (SLOW YOUR ROLE ADRENAL GLANDS!) Blast them with 500-1000 mg's PS after lunch, and 500 mg rhodiola
    0.8 is okay (200 mg PS to fight off any nighttime surges)


    Great plan right? BUT THERE'S MORE!


    I may consider adding isocort in the morning if I can't seem to boost my levels.

    Also, to get my cortisol spike down, I'm considering a mega dose PS protocol, something like 2000 mg's, for a week or so. So that's 20 caps a day, 16 after lunch, 4 before bed.

    To ensure I'm going to sleep through the night, I can always double my dose of diphenhydramine to 50 mg, of course i'll wake up groggy but I can always dose it way earlier to avoid some of the groggy feeling.



    I don't know what's going on at night though.
     
    roxie60 likes this.
  15. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Energy levels are improved today. The biggest addition has been the PS. I have been using 1000 mg's a day. 500 mg at 3 PM, I'm thinking of moving to 4:30 PM. Also, 500 mg before bed. This seems to keep cortisol low while I'm trying to sleep. I've also gotten good sleep the last 2 nights. Benedryl makes it hard to wake up, but once up, I actually feel like the sleep is at least partially restorative.

    No cold hands today...........yet.
     
  16. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    So I think I've discovered something, and I can't find it anywhere online.


    My forearms are pretty veiny, but it seems that when my cortisol is high, such as in the morning, which it's supposed to be, and around 6-9 PM, which it's not supposed to be, my forearms get really veiny. I'm assuming this is from the cortisol raising my blood pressure and or NO levels.

    Why is this important? It's a visual indicator of my cortisol levels. I wake up and my arms tend to be very veiny, then I eat and they are less veiny, then 30 minutes later they are veiny again. Something seems to be altering BP and NO levels on and off.
     
  17. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Before I get into my normal diatribe, I stumbled upon some info for CFS sufferers. Basically many CFS symptoms are hypothyroid.. mainly because at the cellular level you're not getting enough t3. This isn't exactly breaking news, but no one gets it treated properly, and when they are treated for it with synthroid or even armour, it still doesn't work. Why? Because they both have t4, and as long as you have t4, and you're converting to rt3, it will always block the receptors at the cellular level and leave you hypo (which has over 300 symptoms). The first thing you have to do is clear out the rt3... and this can be done with t3 only therapy. I have read it can take 12 weaks to clear them out, and the best method is to start low, and up your dose by roughly 12.5 mcg a week, but also go by symptoms

    Even Dr. Wilson is partially wrong according to this site as timed release t3 doesn't absorb well, which is why you need to take t3 every 2-4 hours, divided doses. Of course, this will never work if you don't have enough cortisol to use the t3. However, from what I've read, HIGH cortisol causes rt3, so it's likely if it's adrenal related, that your RT3 is caused by high cortisol, so you should be making enough for the t3.

    http://thyroid-rt3.com/

    Things to check through lab analysis:

    Iron
    Zinc
    Nuerostranmitters, (dopamine)
    progresterone
    pyrolles (test kit is on it's way)
    High RT3 <---- this is known for sure
    RECHECK cortisol levels with saliva test kit (ZRT labs)

    My T3/RT3 Ratio is 14. It should be 20 or above suggesting I have an RT3 problem.

    My Rt3 problem is most likely caused by high or low cortisol. I'm guessing it's high cortisol at night.
    I have mild fluid retention in face/abdomen/chest. Luckily my bodyfat isn't that high so most people
    can't even tell, but I can tell, it seems to increase my bodyfat by 5% even though it's just water.
    So I have gone from 15% bodyfat to 20% bodyfat visibly.

    I found a site that talks about fixing the RT3 issue. I know that Dr. Wilson and Dr. Rind use
    extended release T3 to clear RT3, and that after it's cleared your may not even need it anymore.


    "The treatment for too much RT3 involves stopping more being made and waiting for what's in the body to decay or be excreted.

    This is relatively easy but there are pitfalls along the way. A lot of Drs are worried by people doing this as things happen too quickly to be done by lab tests, patients need to adjust dose by symptoms and vital signs.

    RT3 is only made from T4. If you get rid of T4, both from your own thyroid and from supplements, then no more RT3 gets made. In order to do this and stay alive an alternative source of the bio-active T3 is needed and this is readily available in the form of synthetic T3 hormone.

    The basic treatment is to stop all meds containing T4 and start T3 instead, The dose of this is slowly increased week by week as the T4 levels in your body diminish. After 6 weeks or so the T4 and RT3 levels in your blood will be very low. You need to keep going longer than this though as it takes around 12 weeks for the RT3 to clear the receptors as well.

    During this time you may not be able to take enough T3 to fully clear hypo symptoms though some people may feel pretty well at this stage. It all depends on hy hypo you were, how high the T3 and RT3 levels were, and your iron and adrenal status. We do not recommend going above 125 of T3 during this clearing process, there is no improvement in clearance achieved with a larger dose, provided there is enough to suppress TSH and stop T4 production then clearance will occur. (updated 10/10)

    If the T3 you are taking does clear most hypo symptoms and you had high in range or over range RT3 levels then be prepared to drop the amount of T3 you are taking when resistance clears. This can be dramatic and you can end up needing half what you needed the day before when the resistance clears. This is one of the reasons that you need to go by symptoms and pulse/temperature, things happen too fast to base it all on lab numbers. (updated 10/10)

    You can of course keep the dose lower and put up with feeling hypo for longer, when it clears you simply end up feeling less hypo. Dosing at this time is a compromise between symmptoms and the effect when clearing and we do not recommend going above 125mcg of T3. (updated 10/10)"

    http://thyroid-rt3.com/
     
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  18. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Just to update this thread, I got my pyroluria results back (13.4), elevated. My genetic results: compound hetero MTHFR.

    Tomorrow I'm getting blood drawn for Iron, Ferrtin, and TIBC, as well as lipids and progresterone.
     
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  19. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    My Ferritin was elevated: 313
    My total cholesterol was 156. I think that's a little low, no?
    My progesterone was 0.7 ref (0.2 - 1.2) <---- that could be the issue-- since progresterone converts partially to cortisol.
     
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  20. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Here's my current theory and protocol:

    With adrenal fatigue, many people have "high's" and "lows," or just "lows." There is also high cortisol, but most people seem to recover for that with diet, sleep, and cortisol lowering supplements and by increasing carbohydrates. I'm more interested in high/low and low.

    My cortisol is not as high as it should be in the morning, or afternoon. Then it goes really high in the evening. I have to attack it depending on how it's behaving.

    1. In the morning I need a cortisol increase, but how do I accomplish this without hydrocortizone or prednisolone?

    When your body produces cortisol, it starts with cholesterol, which is broken down into pregnenelone, and then in a few more steps it becomes progresterone, and a few more after that it can become cortisol, or even aldosterone.

    Hypothetically I could take pregnenelone, or even progesterone, however there are multiple delivery methods for these, and also there is no telling how the body will process them enzymatically.

    So, I need another way to increase cortisol, or extend it's life. When cortisol is produced, it is eventually broken down by an enzyme in the liver. By depleting this enzyme, I'm able to extend the life of cortisol, thereby allowing it to circulate longer systematically.

    Licorice root destroys this enzyme. By lowering the amount of this enzyme, I can extend the life of the cortisol, and this I can do more with less, giving it time to interact with tissues and allow t3 into the cells. For this is will take 500 mg of licorice (non-DGL) extract. I can opt to take it 2-3 times a day, but will map my tolerance with a morning dose.

    Next, since I have been hypothyroid, I would like to make sure my thyroid is able to function optimally. For this I need to consume at least the RDA daily value of iodine, but not too much, since I had problems taking mega doses which seemed to make me more hypothyroid. I also need to take cofactors like selenium. So 200 mcg iodine and 100 mcg selenium.


    2. I need to lower cortisol in the evening.

    I have found that vitamin C seems to having a lowering effect on cortisol, which explains why I had bad reactions to it in the morning, however it feels much different in the evening. Taking mega doses per Dr. Lam does not seem to be applicable.

    Seriphos has been used to lower cortisol levels, and many people suggest taking this or phophatidyl-serine at upwards of 2 grams a day until your body gets the message and stops sending the response to produce cortisol.

    Addressing defects: pyroluria/MTHFR. Methylation support must always be present for the gears to turn. Also, zinc/p5p/manganese must be used to support the kryptopryrolle elevation.
     

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