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Raw vegan (or almost raw-vegan) issues with CFS

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Adlyfrost, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    Anyone else going raw-vegan or almost raw vegan for CFS? What have been your issues regarding:

    methylation?
    oxalates?
    managing sugar levels?

    The raw vegan gurus on the web who have cured themselves of cancer, etc, don't address our issues, IMO. Looking for support and to share what has worked, what hasn't.
     
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  2. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    hey @Adlyfrost I tried raw vegan but it wasn't for me. My digestion was so weak that it had too much difficulty digesting the raw and generally cold food. The sugar levels were hard to handle for me as I have a natural tendency towards sugar cravings, and it was difficult to get enough digestable protein to counter that. The green juices gave me the jitters (oxalates?). Not saying that it's not a good diet, just that it's not for everyone, especially if your digestion is weak.
     
  3. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I've not tried a Vegan diet for years. Had a Vegan flatmate who offered to prepare extra food for me to share.

    Sadly, it was a disaster. Some raw food and vegan food I can cope with but overall I felt constantly poisoned, off-centre and very weak. My stomach rebelled with what became a constant stomach ache and terrible painful problems. I had nausea and it got harder and harder to physically move and think.

    Before trying this diet I had already learned that green and sulpherous veges were a major problem for me. Wholegrains and nuts were also very bad.

    This started within my first year of having ME and has not got any better over the decades. I can get a certain level of functioning by eating a certain diet (or set of foods that my stomach can contact) and a Vegan diet did not include enough of these foods sadly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
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  4. jadam914

    jadam914 Foggy member

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    There are people that say vegan and vegetarian are unhealthy. Humans are dietary opportunist through out evolutionary history which includes meat. Our bodies were not designed for some of the vegetables and grains in the modern diet. Not saying it doesn't work for some people but I think some "guru's" health benefits are blown out of proportion and likely ment to sell books. I went paleo, which is closer to what our long distance ancestors ate. It's a good thing Hitler was vegetarian it helped ruin his health or we all might be speaking German.:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
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  5. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Fun that you mention this.
    It seems many vegetarians are pissed off by this claim and they reject it very strongly. I don't think there's enough evidence to really say if Hitler was a vegetarian or not... but it seems he was in the late part of his life:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/...taster-speaks-of-Fuhrers-vegetarian-diet.html

    However I am not sure a regular vegetarian diet can ruin anybody's health. You can still have eggs and dairy products and it's less drastic than vegan, or worse, raw vegan.

    Most vegans I know seem stuck in a cult more than a following diet...
     
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  6. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    btw... veggies are really beneficial, especially some families:



    No need to become vegeterian, though :)
     
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  7. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    Wow, I have had very similar experiences @ukxmrv and @Effi !

    To be fair, I can't nor do I have any intention of giving up my morning bone broth! And raw vegan is is very hard cuz I too can't tolerate:
    1. high oxalates- poisons!!!! (spinach, chard, beets, etc)
    2. must keep cruciferous LOW!!!! (CBS mutation!)
    3. I find raw vegan too acidic too esp. since I have eliminated most seeds and all grains (only allow myself a handful of pumpkin seeds if any a day as far as grains)
    4. Hard time giving up cooked veggies. Won't give up cooked asparagus and cooked eggplant- yum!!!
    5. need butyric acid, aka BUTTER!!! yum!
    6. I have candida problems too! So fruits for the most part are out!

    But an 80% raw diet might work.
    1. veggie smoothie with celery, cucumber, berries romaine in the morning (after bone broth) and
    2. a huge green salad at lunch and
    3. some cooked veggies in the evening
    This seems to do better than paleo for me, although it could be considered paleo in a sense, or PEGAN (paleo-vegan combo).

    Two years ago though when I was very sick I could only drink bone broth and decaf coffee and tea with goat milk and all these veggies had too much sugar for me too at the time. So I understand when people say they can't do it and it certainly isn't the miracle cure some people make it out to be esp for PWME and it angers me when I hear it touted as a cure. But there are certainly merits to it:

    -enzymes! aka catalysts.
    -water-based- easy to pass through GI
    -high fiber
    -high in vitamins
    -high bioavailability of nutrients if right combos are used
    -high ANTI-OXIDANTS!
    -anti-inflammatory photo-chemicals
    -apparently some immune factors (see above)

    so I think it is worth shooting for.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
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  8. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    Hi @Effi ! I get jitters from greens / green juices too! Posting in this thread now looking for answers. We were just discussing high oxalates too.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...al-replication-in-cfs.9536/page-7#post-697098
     
  9. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    I eat quite a lot of raw still too (similar to what you're describing above - maybe 50%? almost exclusively vegetables though), there is something about it that does me good. My guess is that it's the water and fiber content.

    One thing that I learned while researching the theories behind raw vs cooked, is that there are certain nutrients our bodies are unable to process when raw, like carrots. So yes, raw carrots have more nutrients than cooked, but what use is it if our bodies aren't taking in those nutrients? = Empty calories that our bodies have to process - not the best option for a sick and exhausted body... That is where the raw theory goes wrong imo (apart from the sugar content of course).
     
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  10. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    I couldn't tolerate raw vegan or even vegan. I followed Ann Wigmore's writings for almost a year. Soaking, sprouting, fermenting, etc. Back then, I believed that B12 was obtainable from seaweeds, etc.

    I worked in a health food store deli at the time. Every time I even looked at the egg salad, my mouth watered. o_O

    I always had ibs, before,during, and after those diets.

    btw, Hitler had ibs, and gas.:snigger:
    http://www.neatorama.com/2014/03/24/Der-Fartenfhrer-The-Story-of-Hitlers-Health/
     
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  11. CantThink

    CantThink Senior Member

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    I did too! The Hippocrates Diet. It made me sicker than ever. It was hard work too.

    One of issues with raw vegan food and veganism is that I never felt energy from food. It seemed to require as much energy to prepare & try to digest it as was contained within it! I felt so weak from it... I also had a lot of IBS type symptoms.

    Then during my raw, and vegan diet attempts, I became completely intolerant of so many things: all alliums (onion, garlic, chives, etc), broccoli, lentils, gluten, bananas, mixtures of veg (e.g. a stir fry)... No soy because of endometriosis. In the end trying to eat vegan or vegetarian was just too complicated with all these restrictions. I was not well enough to do it.

    I was 'pescetarian' before this. I wasn't too bad on that, but I think I was missing iron and maybe b12...

    So after the vegetable intolerance nightmares, I switched to meat & fish eating, slow cooked food, bone broth, gluten free... Focused on easy to digest and gut healing. I'm probably leaning more towards Weston A Price principles. Unfortunately my biggest digestive issue now is gastroparesis and colonic inertia. So I have to eat what I can to try to get in calories/nutrients, and I no longer feel focused on diet as my whole or even partial answer.

    I know quite a few people who have followed the gurus and fully committed to the raw vegan or 80 10 10 type diet - one of them being a close family member. My relatives got sick on it, severe weight loss, looked awful, seemed deficient in things or were deficient in things, they became obsessed and cultish about it. A type of orthorexia. I got sucked in as they were so evangelical about it and I thought I couldn't knock it til I tried it.

    One thing I noticed as a result of this is: the gurus... They make money off of it... Often big money. They are very charismatic & persuasive... The things they sell are typically very expensive. When I started doing 'due diligence' and checking up on some of these people, my eyes were opened - there was a lot of rubbish and shady activities/characters. I couldn't really take what a lot of them were saying seriously anymore.
     
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  12. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    @Crux Never heard of Ann Wigmore, but I do have a guru of sorts- well not really a guru, but a persuasive advocate I listen to: Markus Rosenkranz and his girlfriend on youtube. They are the healthiest looking vegans I ever saw. They eat a lot of irish moss- which may be the source of their collagen, and wild greens. They also eat cooked food via the food dehydrator (they say its not cooked but it really is IMO) which looks to me a way to cheat. (I actually prefer cooked food to completely dehydrated food because at least cooked has moisture.)

    I certainly don't buy everything they say but a vegan diet high in plant fats and a vast variety of food I think makes sense. They take TONS of enzymes to constantly break down indigestible plant matter. I have found that the enzymes and water enemas (which they also advocate) have been a real game changer in how I am adjusting to raw foods and tolerating cooked ones too- much easier to get back on track for example after off days and much more energy.

    So these successful vegans having to take enzymes round the clock supports, to an extent, what you guys are saying about us not being designed to digest raw foods. For example we do not make cellulase but cows do and that enzyme has really helped my candida / digestion and subsequently, my energy.

    I was almost raw vegan when I began getting super sick about 4 years ago. I remember feeling pretty happy at that time (until I got sick of course). The diet did not seem to help my fevers and viral symptoms but it may have helped my recovery after I discovered methylation and glutathione. Soon after that though, I had to start eating more calories and more cooked foods as my supplements began to work and demanded more from my body.

    But now that I have adjusted to my regimen of 100 pills of supplements a day I want to go back to a more raw diet because on cooked food I have very little libido, feel more depressed, have less energy and my senses are not as sensitive as when I was more vegan. My skin has also become drier and more rough (vanity- yes!) Without these things I get discouraged and depressed and being able to feel good mentally is so important for my recovery IMO.

    However chicken bone broth is not negotiable!
     
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  13. CantThink

    CantThink Senior Member

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    I agree. I noticed a lot of the rawists take many supplements and supplementary foods/items. I don't have an issue with that - they can do what they like, but I do ponder how 'natural' is this? It seems counter to a lot of the original ideas behind this way of eating.

    Of course certain individuals then sell these products. :whistle:

    I actually found out that in private some of these people don't even adhere to the diet they claim to be eating in the way that they publicly state. I can't remember which ones it was as this was a few years ago, but there was evidence/compelling information in the public domain.

    Dehydrated kale, banana coins, mulberries, pineapple and apple are all quite tasty/moorish, but I agree about the whole cooking versus dehydrating thing... IMO It is the way they cope with the extremes they are inflicting on themselves. It is easy or easier to follow this type of diet in summer, but in the cold, grey, winter it is much less appealing!

    Thyroid?
     
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  14. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    So true!!!! So much easier to eat raw when I lived in FL than in Northeast!
     
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  15. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Now things are beginning to get better, but for the last two years, I couldn't tolerate most vegetables. (sibo)

    I've long been an advocate of eating mostly veg. Painful it was to let go of them for a while. Green beans and zucchini I ate mostly.

    I'll say it's great to be able to eat more variety now, without gut reactions. Potatoes, yay.

    @Adlyfrost , I love bone broth! I'm glad that irish moss can be a source of collagen, didn't know, thanks.

    @CantThink , Yes, I still refer to Sally Fallon's cook book, but with less grains, some rice, occasional corn. (still react to corn.)
     
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  16. wintersky

    wintersky

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    My personal belief is that turning more vegan (not raw vegan) was one thing that helped me to heal 100% from my symptoms back then 10+ years ago. The pre-sickness diet i had was 90+% meat based with dairy. I also had abdominal pains, diarrohea, constipation, bloating etc then (IBS perhaps). Eating more vegetables caused more pains actually and strong discomforts for a certain period, but i persisted because i had a strong intuition that it was actually good for my body then. That said, i did not transition too fast to being an almost 100% vegan, but did gradual changes until about 2+ years later i turned practically vegan (but indulge in some eggs sometimes)

    There is a horrible transition path involved here which i doubt many people can withstand or confuse as being bad perhaps. There are incredible unimaginable sharp pains which occurs along the way, which i personally feel to be the adjustment time needed for the stomach/body. It was only 2+ years later that i dared to make the full leap. Since then, whenever i accidentally small pieces of meat products, i find myself having to endure quite significant pains. So the pain process works 2 ways perhaps.

    A vegetarian friend turned raw vegan & within a year of it, her appetite reduced to 1 meal per day (bloating, fullness + digestion problems etc) & she contracted epilepsy. It's been close to 10 years & the only thing that helped her regain digestion & appetite to 2 meals a day recently was coming daily for my house for sessions for an electrotherapy machine which i bought recently.

    I think there has to be careful personal judgment based on one's personal situation, instead of being a black & white issue.
     
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  17. roller

    roller wiggle jiggle

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    this i felt always, but for all food. (except some fruits, chocolate)
    if anything, i felt bad and very very tired. mostly the day was done.
    i quite disliked meat.

    this entirely changed after the first anti-helminth meds.

    i actually felt energy from food.
    while things still change (appetite wise etc.), and im eating mostly carbs, i still feel a distinctive energy from meat (burgers).
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
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  18. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    I was into macrobiotics for a while too (before I got sick) and there were so many stories about the big gurus being chain smokers! (tabacco is a night shade, so it was a double sin hehe) And what about all the gurus getting cancer and dieing? After a life long of saying it was the diet that prevented them from getting sick? Let's take all diets with a pinch of salt - only if salt is allowed though! lol
    I've seen many accounts of raw foodies moving to countries around the equator (full time or only for the winter months) because it is too difficult to eat only raw vegetables and fruit smoothies in let's say winter time Alaska. Raw Fruitarians were really into this too, as there's much more fresh (ripe) fruit available in warmer climates. Their theory: humans aren't supposed to live in colder climates, cause that's not where the first humans lived. o_O
     
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  19. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @Effi

    I was macrobiotic too for a while and it is true that Kushi and his wife both died of cancer, it is claimed that all of their air travel damaged them with radiation, and l am not aware of any others getting cancer so l tend to accept that.

    But it is true that once health is regained that people will break their diets and macros believe that their bodies can easily detox the poisons in cigarettes and they will not get cancer as it depends on diet.

    No diet is perfect and l think that they needed nicotine because the diet is too 'heavy' and does not give high levels of energy, otherwise l knew my body was healing rapidly on it. I could not Keep it up though.

    I did not do well on raw vegan because of diarrhoea due to too much folate for my SNPs l believe and l have now gone paleo via Terry Wahl's and am having promising results so far.
     
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  20. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    yes that's who I was talking about, but there were others (not well known) too that I have met. I don't really care if people drink or smoke or break their diet. It's just that they can make people feel like they are this perfect example, but I think it's impossible to follow a diet 100% all the time. In fact I think that would be unhealthy. It's interesting to see how they feel the need to seem perfect, instead of building our natural tendency to imperfection into their program...

    What I liked in macrobiotics (and I still kind of use that in lots of things) was the yin/yang balance principle. It's a life art I think, never finished, and it can be applied to any aspect of life. :balanced: Also the variation in textures and colors is something I still use as a tool when it comes to food.
     
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