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Raw Thyroid Glandular

Discussion in 'Thyroid Dysfunction' started by Lou, Mar 28, 2013.

  1. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    maryb if you can afford it it may be worth your while to see a medical herbalist for thigs such as adaptogens. I saw one for a few years who was very (gently) helpful. Although it took a while she did help my immune system and overdriven adrenals quite a bit - have only had one lung infection in the past two years compared with 4 or 5 every year before that.

    As Ema says the Ginsengs are considered adaptogens, but i had terrible trouble with them - they made me feel very anxious and nasty, so have steered clear ever since.

    Once i get my adrenal saliva test results back i may go back on some herbs again and try and build up my system that way before going back to the thyroid replacement drugs.

    Good luck with the Levo. Like you when i tired it i started low as i was so scared of adverse drug effects, unfortunately for me it had no effect good or bad in the long run and the trial was abandoned.

    All the best,
    Justy
  2. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    justy
    thanks for your advice - I too tried a ginseng once and thought I was going to have a heart attack - and that was before ME.
    I may pm you about a herbalist - so many around here need to get a recommendation really though.
  3. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I have a whole closet of supplements if that makes you feel any better. :)

    Maybe try the PS first since the rhodiola is out of stock? I really think more of us should try PS because of our HPA axis dyregulation issues...

    Minerals can make you nauseous for sure. I have made that mistake before too! Hope you are feeling better today.

    Ema
  4. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    My general advice is to see a qualified MEDICAL herbalist rather than someone who is a herbalist. Medical herbalists have had many years more training, often make their own herbs and can take blood pressure readings etc.

    Mine is in Wales, so not probably going to be much use to you, but i did see a very good one in Brighton some years ago.

    All the best,
    Justy.
  5. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Thanks for your observations Ema.

    I don't take thyroid hormones because there is nothing wrong with my thyroid...it works fine except when burned out by allergies. During allergies the best I can do is supply more raw materials, which works for awhile. There may be a point at which my body uses up these raw materials faster than they can be supplied (gut tolerance etc). I am afraid to push it because I just don't feel comfortable taking >100mg zinc / day for a month stretch...you know, because it is such a high dose that I wouldn't know if it's safe (I have certainly done it during colds and it works very well for a few days for that).

    I caught a cold that turned to an allergy attack just yesterday and tried 300mg coleus forskohlii and while I could feel it, it was not of significant effect (so maybe like 10%). I do not know if that would improve if taken every day. The recommended amount for weight loss is 250mg so I figured if others are taking the higher dose, why not me? Well didn't help much on the spot anyway. Took 100mg zinc. The thing is, I did't know I was catching a cold until I was out for the day s I couldn't just grab more zinc and zinc late in the day will keep you awake.,..

    Trif
  6. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    So, Justy, do we get to see your face on a good day and only your icon on a bad hair day? (just teasing)
    justy likes this.
  7. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Ema, what effects have you noticed from PS? How is that supposed to affect HPA? I was supposed to take it but never really knew what it was supposed to do for you (I got my homocysteine normal w/o it). Would it help allergies? Thanks! -- Oh, I see above you say you take 800mg/day and it gives the HPA a 'kick'. (Does that mean it helps allergies???) (I am so hoping)
  8. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    MaryB, I took high dose Rhodiola for 10 years to control hypoglycemia (age 40-50). I would get low blood sugar from just being cut off in traffic (and be unable to stop shaking until I ate...this is very much a prescription for diabetes as it is exactly how my friend who has since died of it contracted diabetes...she took a big adrenaline shock falling on the ice and suddenly went from normal to brittle diabetic, dying young of diabetic kidney disease). Rhodiola has been proven to increase glycogen stores. After age 50 it was no longer strong enough for me to prevent hypoglycemia and I had to take DHEA which did the trick.

    I am investigating cAMP as it is required to break down glycogen and it is low in people with allergies. Some herbs raise it including Spirulina. I did not look at rhodiola because I am investigating as pertains to allergies. would be nice if one thing fixed all. SO now I am curious if rhodiola raises cAMP. I'll check and report back.

    Triff
  9. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/4/3371

    Salidroside Attenuates Hydrogen Peroxide-Induced Cell Damage Through a cAMP-Dependent Pathway

    Shuang Guan, Wei Wang, Jing Lu, Wenhui Qian, Guoren Huang, Xuming Deng and Xuelin Wang 1,* [​IMG]


    Abstract: Salidroside, a major component of Rhodiola rosea L., has shown various pharmacological functions, including antioxidant effects, but the signal transduction pathway of its antioxidant effects is not very clear. In this study, we found that salidroside could attenuate hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)-induced HL-7702 cell damage, inhibit H2O2-induced cytosolic free Ca2+ ([Ca2+]i) elevation, scavenge reactive oxygen species (ROS) and increase 3’-5’-cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) level in a dose-dependent manner, but it couldn’t influence 3’-5’-cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP) levels. Therefore, these results indicated that the antioxidant effects of salidroside were associated with down-regulation of [Ca2+]i, ROS occur via a cAMP-dependent pathway.

    So looks like it would have an effect in allergies too, idk the dose. It takes 3 months at 2g/day for Spirulina to help with allergies...
  10. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    It's hard to say because I've just started and I still am battling giardia. But I would say that I feel less stressed/more clear in my brain. I've also noticed that my vision seems to be improving again. I'll report back in a few months after I've been taking it regularly for some period of time.

    PS can also boost dopamine in the hypothalamus which should theoretically help to lower my high prolactin. Hopefully more gently than the bromocriptine!
    triffid113 likes this.
  11. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Thanks! Despite COM+/+ I always test low in dopamine. I methylate ok with lotsa supplements so it's something else. I could try PS. Not sure how I'd know if I was making more dopamine because of it. (The test is $300 and so not gonna happen).
  12. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Ema
    triffid113

    Thanks ema - I feel better today - had a hypo this morning (I don't have diabetes) but think it was because I didn't eat much after lunch yesterday as I was feeling so sick and probably exerted myself too much seems to have stabilised okay now.
    triffid
    I get you on the hypo attacks - I have been trying to be more careful but exerting too much energy or stress can bring one on. I've been rx DHEA but not started it yet - one thing at a time..........
  13. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    Here's another take on the issue of thyroid problems.Hypothyroid as well as hyperthyroid are very real diagnoses with many symptoms but have real science based procedures to back them up.. As someone who at one time hyperthyroid, it's a scary experience. I could have easily had a heart attack because of my erratic/very rapid heartbeat. I don't wish that experience on anyone. I am now hypothyroid. Using OTC supplements as well as desiccated thyroid can inadvertently lead to hyperthyroidism and/or similar symptoms.The endocrine system is very sensitive and works in a delicate balance. A change in one part can change the others which can not only be harmful to health but mess up the reading on Thyroid tests thus possibly leading to treatments that do not relate to what health problem are actually present. These problems can be caused by the dessicated thyroid as well as OTC supplements.


    http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2011-jax/6514.html?rss-feedid=1
    Contrary to popular believe on the web, endocrinologists do treat subclinical hypothyroidism and there is a systematic way to dianose and treat this disorder.
    thttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15260011?dopt=Abstract
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...acts-the-controversies-and-the-pseudoscience/
    As far as Armour being more natural, pigs are not people and have a different ratio of T4 and T3 than levothyroxine. So in this case synthroid is more natural as it is tailored to how the human body works. T3 is unstable with a very short half life. T4 in most cases will convert to the right amount of T3.

    I have lots of trepidation with the practice of using symptoms to only using symptoms to diagnose, as other health conditions may be overlooked. The symptoms cited by the alternative webpages are vague and can mimic other diseases. Increasing your dose by symptoms only is IMHO not appropriate medical practice, may have dangerous health consequences and a form of self medication.

    It’s important that we know as much as possible about treatment options and all the issues, as much as humanly possible, when it comes to decisions about our health care.




    .
  14. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    But not in all cases. My body was converting almost all of it's T4 to reverse T3 and very little to T3. I am taking a Very Low dose of Liothyronine without problem.
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  15. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Most people don't want to be hyperthyroid OR hypothyroid but to be euthyroid.

    I'm not sure how being hypo helps the case that T4 alone is sufficient!

    It's always important to use supplements with the guidance of a skilled practitioner. This is true for all supplements, not just thyroid.

    Most thyroid supplements contain amino acids and/or iodine which are very unlikely to cause any great long-term harm.

    Desiccated thyroid supplements are widely used worldwide and have a very good safety profile unlike many other of the drugs that we are subjected to. I bet there are fewer deaths from natural thyroid products than from Tylenol.

    This article discusses the safety and benefit of combination therapy and provides a rebuttal to the flawed and biased studies showing otherwise:

    http://www.thyroidscience.com/Criticism/lowe.3.16.09/lowe.bta.rebuttal.3.16.09.pdf

    There are lots of problems with the study posted showing that there was supposedly no benefit to T4/T3 only therapy. The dosages were not equivalent, the FT4 was allowed to drop, the TSH was allowed to rise, the dosing of T3 was not appropriate once a day, the measurement of FT3 24 hours after a dose is totally inaccurate due to the short half life...the list goes on and on.

    But most tellingly, the study itself quotes a handful of other studies that show that there WERE benefits to patients of combination therapy but then invents excuses as to why THOSE were flawed and not their own study!

    Unfortunately, they then have to conclude that half the patients on combination therapy improved whereas half did not. While this proportion is probably not entirely accurate, it does show that nearly 50% of people on T4 do better with the addition of T3 to their thyroid medication regimen. Funny how they didn't choose to highlight that finding but instead attributed it to chance.

    It's true that subclinical hypothyroidism is studied in the literature. It's also true that a certain subset of people with subclinical hypo may not benefit from thyroid hormone replacement. But since a certain number of people DO benefit, and there is very little risk for a trial of thyroid hormone, it seems very silly to write it off. There is little possibility for harm and great possibility for benefit. Seems like a no-brainer to me!

    And the truth of the matter is that endos in general do not recognize and/or treat subclinical hypothyroidism. They BARELY treat overt hypothyroidism when they are reliant on the TSH only.

    I saw 6 endos before I found one in this area that was familiar with the concept. She was one of the most senior faculty members of the state school of medicine. She acknowledged the problem of subclinical hypothyroidism but had no explanation for why it was not taught in the medical school. Endos are NOT taught about this issue currently in the way that they should be taught. They are taught to treat to the TSH alone so that is what they do.

    If treating patients as lab results worked, we would have no need for doctors and could just go to see computers. A skilled clinician should have judgment that is more valuable than a lab report and that is how it was throughout history.

    Medicine was every bit as much of an art as a science. We have lost that now and the population's health reflects this trend.

    Spend 5 minutes in the waiting room of any typical endo and you will see the fattest, sickest people you would ever want to meet. It's a crying shame and it should be criminal.


    You REALLY need to vet your sources a little more closely!

    Read a little bit more about the Executive Editor of sciencebasedmedicine.org and then post anything from that blog here with a straight face.

    ETA: There are reports that his affiliation with Yale may not be all it is made out to be. I don't know for sure if this is true, but I have no reason to doubt it.

    http://www.bolenreport.com/feature_articles/Doctor's-Data-v-Barrett/novellahumiliation.htm


    "Novella claims to be a neurology professor at Yale University, and throws the name "Yale" around like he was throwing seed to the morning chickens - but, to me, that is an outright fabrication.

    Novella, evidence shows, works for a medical center that "rents" the name "Yale" from the University, who then, assuming the monthly payments are up to date, gets to claim that all their staff doctors are, in fact, professors at Yale (insert bad smell here).

    In short, Novella is just another justifiably self-disappointed crap-career loser...



    The reality of Novella, easily found, is that he testifies for insurance companies, and that seems to be the extent of his practice. I get a picture of Novella saying"that hatchet imbedded in Mr. Smith's head by his employer is causing no neurological damage, and it is clear that Mr. Smith is faking his claims of pain... His employer was right to fire him when he didn't show up for work the next day. Mr. Smith clearly self-inflicted his injury... and has previously demonstrated his social recalcitrance when he failed to institutionalize his autistic child, actually claiming that the autism started after a series of 152 vaccinations were given in one day by a pediatrician. It is clear that Mr. Smith, and his wife, caused the autism themselves, in that they are clearly genetically defective... blah, blah, blah..., blah, blah, blah..., blah, blah, blah..., blah, blah, blah..., blah, blah, blah..., blah, blah, blah..."
    You know - the usual quackbuster testimony."


    Yes, pigs are not people and that is why Armour doesn't work well for some people and they do better on a synthetic bioidentical T4 + T3 therapy so that they can control the proportion.

    But the actual thyroid hormone is the same (and bioidentical) regardless of the source whereas the same cannot be said for the conjugated estrogens in Premarin. Those are not bioidentical and do not work the same way. The only difference in the thyroid hormone is the proportion, not the content.

    T3 is not unstable just because it has a short half life. That's just biased writing to make people fearful. Scary things are unstable so if T3 is unstable it must be scary too! Just fear-mongering, pure and simple.

    Funny, because that is how hypothyroidism was historically treated for years with many fewer problems. It's your choice to remain hypo as you stated in your first paragraph.

    No one is saying not to have expert clinical guidance or advocating self medication. I am advocating learning the actual facts, speaking to patients who have been through it and coming to your own conclusions.

    The TRUTH of the matter is that some people do great on T4 only therapy. Some people do not and benefit from the addition of T3 to their regimen. This results in a greatly improved quality of life and very few risks when appropriately monitored by a doctor who is not a slave to the TSH and actually bothers to monitor your free thyroid hormone levels.

    Ema
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  16. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    The dosing of T3 once a day was not only inappropriate, but potentially dangerous. That is probably (I hope) why the dosages were not equivalent.
    justy likes this.
  17. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    The dosages were not equivalent because it is not possible to calculate equivalencies accurately. They are different hormones. Sure, T4 can turn into T3 under the right circumstances but it is like trying to compare apples and oranges.

    Progesterone can also turn into aldosterone but you don't see anyone out there trying to talk about how much progesterone equals aldosterone!

    Studies that puport to do this are lost from the very start.

    The only thing they could have done would be to go by the FT3 and FT4...and see when people have the same levels of thyroid hormones, which preparation(s) caused greater satisfaction.

    Of course, it would have been really difficult for many people on T4 alone to get their FT3 equivalent to those on combination therapy...which is kind of the whole point!
  18. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    This is not a study but as the title suggests an opinion paper in rebuttal to the standard practice position paper published by the British Thyroid Association.
    While the authors do use citations, many of them are questionable. For example some of the citations are exact duplicates of the first citation but another author quoting the original article. To me this seems less than professional.

    “Invent” is a personal opinion. Nothing wrong with personal opinion but it’s standard procedure for papers/studies to cite data they think is valid.



    I hold Novella in high esteem and find his articles which are based on the latest studies and best medical practice credible. But that’s just me. The criticisms by Bolan, IMHO, sound like speculation and it seems he has a grudge with Steve Novella. Again, this is my take on reading the above.


    It’s certainly not my intention to spread fear. This post is my opinion based on my research of the medical literature showing another side of this issue.

    While T3 added to T4 may be used on a certain subset of patients. T3 is chemically unstable, if that is the correct term, because of the half life of T3. The dosage does not last throughout the day which makes a therapeutic dose differ over time. T3 has some serious side effects that need to be taken into consideration when adding T3 to T4 for treatment of hypothyroidism.
    Just because a medicine is used historically does not necessarily show its efficacy is better. Scientific medical practice is a process that may change. A good example is the change in boundaries in TSH for diagnosing.
    I am not hypothyroid.
    I couldn't agree more. These are my conclusions and why I believe it’s important to see an endocrinologist if a consult is warranted. Endocrinologist have years and years of study in this area. If people are not being helped by synthroid alone or have subclinical hypothyroidism, this can be detected by standardized tests and if a reading is low or high normal, frequent screening is the recommended practice even by a PCPs.




    My main concern is when some of these alternative doctors see every vague symptom as hypothyroidism even if the blood test for TSH is in the normal range. Unfortunately, there are many other health conditions that can have the same symptoms.
    Extra thyroid can give you a” lift” as it speeds up metabolism but that is not the same as hypothyroidism or even showing you need it. The improvement patients see may be a direct result of this. Taking thyroid medication when not warranted has the potential of shutting down the thyroid gland.
    I have stated my case so won’t post more about this. I’m just showing another view as it’s important to see all sides of an issue. Choices are choices and different opinions are just that. People are free to do this and hope a different take is not taken personally.
  19. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    You know, the irony is that conventional medicine sends more patients into self treatment than any blog or forum on the Internet. It is their own failings and unwillingness to pick up a medical journal in this century that drive people elsewhere for answers. The system is broken and we are the casualties.

    I don't believe zealots on either side of the issue. There are plenty of alternative med practitioners out there selling snake oil, for sure. But I don't even think there should be a divide between "alternative" and conventional medicine. Sometimes we don't know why things work and that is OK (unless you are an insurance company). But this is true in conventional medicine as well. Last time I checked, Pharma still wasn't sure how SSRIs worked but they're sure not stopping selling antidepressants in the meanwhile!

    It's unrealistic to expect a peer reviewed double blind study for every possible issue or treatment. And it's impossible to overlook study bias and design flaws when holding papers up as the gold standard.

    I've been very lucky (if you could call it luck) to see some of the very best specialists around and I try to share that with people who are interested. I've also seen some of the very worst doctors. I hate for people to get stuck in the drug, drug for side effect, drug for side effect of side effect model of "treatment" when in many cases (like endocrinology in particular!) there are very real options to get people up and moving again.

    When doctors combine the best of science with the best of clinical practice experience and judgment, patients have the best outcomes. The two should never be mutually exclusive.

    Ema
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  20. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    That did occurs to me. My main point is that the appropriate daily dose of T3 should not be given at one time. It would wallop the adrenals and probably do a lot of other nasty things besides.

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