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Rash/Lesion Start Up From Methylation Protocols

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by LaurieL, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kerrilyn,

    I can only conjecture on this. Mb12 affects the autonomic nervous system that controls contraction and dilation of capillaries. The "signal" comes across stronger with mb12 and while the nerves are still damaged, has some effects. The heat may be provoking the dilation response and it is stronger because of mb12. This may be an explanation. I don't really know. I had all sorts of short term responses that went away in a few months.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laurie,

    I hadn't heard you really talk much about the skin problems, so I was thinking I was a lonely one is this area.


    The fast dividing epithelial tissues (lining the lungs, vagina (false positive pap), bladder, mouth, stomach, intestines and of course skin) are the first to signal tissue formation breakdown in many people. It is so common it is considered "non-specific" and routinely ignored.

    The problem for some people with glutathione is that the precursors are hidden. If you take some of these complicated multi-ingrediant "neural" formulas or whatever, one of them may have NAC and another glutamate, or other forms of precursors or even both in disguised forms. I have talked to many people who have said "I don't take xxxx" and when I read the labels they are taking it in disguised forms.

    That NAC "detox" and glutathione "detox" exactly matches folate deficiency (allowing for differences in wording) but much more intense than the folic/folinic induced acid folate deficincy was what made it so obvious, after I had suffered for 6 months with it.
  3. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Multiple Formulations

    Hello Freddd,

    Again, I do not take multi-ingredient formulations especially neural formulations for many varying reasons. I know many whom do so, and I disagree with this practice as I have found it detrimental.

    I do compound my own and encapsulate my own, but only from my experiences with particular combinations and what they do target. No multi-ingredient on the market thus far that I have found has the right combinations, at least for what works for me. Many have conflicting ingredients, or incorrect ratios. I also find the fillers and non-caking agents a problem as well. And many market formulations contain too many single ingredients in combo for them to be specifically applied.

    So as I said before, I have not knowingly taken any glutithione precursors except the NAC at one time, and that was some time ago. Your observations about glutithione and its precursors including NAC are atleast on target with what I have experienced with the NAC. Thinking back to that time in which I did take NAC, I did experience a "detox" reaction. It could very well be folate deficiency, and I accept your reasoning.

    But since it has been such a long time, and I do compound my own, as far as the Country Life ad B12 and folate deficiency, there is still no doubt as to the induced folate deficiency I experienced with this particular product and my progressive stall.

    My skin is again the loudest indicator I have and then my neuro and fatigue indicators secondary to my skin. So those that be can ignore this indicator all they want, but I can't. It simply will not let me.

    And at your prompting, I will again go over my own formulations, and cross reference for these specific excito-components. :thumbsup:

    On another note, I had read somewhere that some are going to try the Source Naturals dibencozide. I see that the claimed mcg's is 10,000. Is that a typo? I also have a question as to the origin of adenosyl b. Where or what do they make this from, and does this form differ from that that we have been taking in the Country Life?

    I have been using the holistic Health sublingual drops and am not thus far displeased, but at 10000mcg's in the Source Naturals, it may be a cheaper option if in fact it is comparable at the source.

    Laurie
  4. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    I thought I better clarify my thinking here in posing my questions about varying sources or how adenosyl or dibencozide are made.

    I notice on differing labels of products for adenosyl or dibencozide.... Some say adenosyl B from dibencozide, where as other product labels state dibencozide from dibencozide and no mention of adenosyl B. And then others that simply state adenosylcobalimin.

    So due to the varying labels and where something is actually derived from varies, so my question is if adenosyl and dibencozide are from the same source, can be made from differing sources, are the two components identical and one and the same, or do they differ in chemical structure but act the same, yadi ya....??? Are they actually derived from crystal like the methyl, or are they resultant from growth sources and if so, which ones?

    Laurie
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laurie,

    To start with dibencozide and adenosylcobalamin are one and the same, different in name only. Bacteria and molds produce methylcobalamin. Cobalamide (dibencozide, adenosylcobalamin, adb12, adcbl, adenosylb12 and maybe 5 or 6 other names, just like there are perhaps a dozen names for mb12) is produced chemically from the mb12 so produced as are the other forms. It used to be common practice to add cyanide to liver extract to increase the yield of cyanocbl as that was thought to be the desirable form in the 50s based on the lab mistake leading to a Nobel prize for cyanocbl.

    So, the question comes down to is the dibencozide from all base mb12 the same or does it reflect the same kinds of differences as is present in the underlying mb12. And that gets a huge "I DON'T KNOW" and I don't know if anybody knows. For the first time I am actually going to have two brands side by side for comparative testing which is much more dificult than mb12 testing since it takes me a month of adb12 abstinance, or more, for me to have a reliable noticable response adb12.
  6. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    :thumbsup: That explains it to me better than I could find yesterday!!! I know it was kinda a stupid question, but it isn't until one thinks they are starting to understand something, to even form those stupid questions in the first place. :confused:

    You mention it takes you about a month to notice a change reflecting adenosyl levels in you. Please bear with me in my multiple questions and observations, as so far I seem to have identified with you and your symptoms/experiences and have noticed many similarities to what you have described about those.

    My need for adenosyl is quite profound and quite pronounced. This may be a difference here, because I can absolutely tell in about the three day mark a difference in adenosyl. One of the earliest tell all symptoms is a change in my color vision, especially color vision at night. Clarity being another. Then a myraid of fatigue factor symptoms and personality changes follow shortley after.

    Even without the folic acid, although I have been successful in reducing the adenosyl to some small degree, my need for it compared to others dosages, is still quite high. Instead of the 40 with the Country Life, I am still currently sitting at 36 with the HH adenosyl drops. Not much of a difference? Can you all help me with WHY I may be needing this type of large dosage? Rich, Joopiter, all?

    After switching adenosyl's, my requirement for methyl B seems to be sitting at 30. My requirement for the methylfolate is still quite high as well, sitting at 8800.

    Laurie
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laurie,

    First, I want to say that you are not alone in that greater need for adb12. There are others. I appear to have partial conversion of mb12 to adb12 but not enough to keep it full up and not enough to make muscle tissue. So it drains more slowly from my system. It takes about a month for me to be able to reliably notice a difference which means, if it is like other sensory phenomena, 1/3 of a doubling of the feeling, a Just Noticeable Difference or something of the sort. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference, just that it isn't big enough to notice.

    Since mitochondrial failure in the brain leading to MMA in the CSF coupled with a low cobalamin level in the CSF correlates with the development of Parkinson's over a 20 year period it might be very important to keep that up.

    One of the earliest tell all symptoms is a change in my color vision, especially color vision at night. Clarity being another. Then a myraid of fatigue factor symptoms and personality changes follow shortley after.

    Can you describe this in more detail. I want to add this color and clarity of vision change to the symptoms list. Fatigue and personality changes are already there. I had clarity, brightness and inability to focus changes from active b12 lack.

    I suspect you have more limited conversion of mb12 to adb12 than I do. Have you tried the 51mg dose of Country Life adb12 to increase CSF adb12 levels? I know that puts folic acid in for a few hours but this is the effect that takes a month to change for me.
  8. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Hello Freddd,

    Without a lot of extraneous information, the color change and clarity wasn't apparent to me until I started the adenosyl, and then with varying dosages and the accompanying changes, as well as running out and the restarting of adenosyl changes. When starting the methylation protocol suggestions by you, I chose to start with the adenosyl B first. I am thankful I did choose to start this way, because otherwise those vision color and clarity changes might not have been quite so easily attributed to the adenosyl B.

    Nightvision details:

    A bit of my eyesight history first. Everyone in my family except for me, either wore glasses as a child into adulthood, or developed the need for eyewear assistance with age. I have not as of yet. I am 44. My eyesight has always been very good even when I felt I was having difficulty.

    That difficulty starting with when I got very sick in 2006. I was having trouble with focusing at certain distances, and they didn't seem to correlate with a specific distance or that of long distance or how close something was. And it varied from day to day.

    I developed a great difficulty in driving at night, as the streetlights were so bright or the car headlights were so bright that they would shard and blind me. That part improved when I went through the environmental detox doc.

    What I found mind blowing about the adenosyl is the color changes and resulting clarity that wasn't necessarily apparent to me before starting methylation with the adenosyl.

    Its kinda difficult to explain, but at night, when everything was dark, prior to taking adenosyl, I would describe my night vision as being color tone monochromatic. I saw colors as long as they were bright or well lit. Otherwise they tended to blend and lean towards the grey scale. That blending also lends to the clarity observation. Not necessarily a blurry type of clarity, but a border definition type of clarity with monchromoatic color tones.

    I remember one of the first observations in starting with the adenosyl was the popping of colors at night. The grass was so very green, the traffic lights, colors of cars, and the background definition, the clouds at night, the colors from building to building....

    Very profound actually, enough so for me to call my friend when I got home and tell her about it. It was almost like someone had put a matted glass house over my head and then took it off. I don't know how else to explain it any better.

    The conversion of methyl B to 5-deoxyadenosyl B if I understand correctly is dependent on folate?

    Might this also explain my need for high doses of methylfolate?

    Laurie
  9. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Something else I am starting to attribute to the adenosyl B. Appetite. I can easily be anorexic going below a certain dose with adenosyl. At 40, my appetite occurs at certain times in the day, day to day. Below 40, I become anorexic, no appetite.

    Laurie
  10. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Could you explain this more to me? I believe I could easily do 51mg's of adenosyl B, but I am quite reticent to do so with the Country Life. That stall I was experiencing with the Country Life at the dosages I was doing is most definately gone. My skin changes in the last two weeks have been monumental and I find I am unwilling to do the folic acid in those doses ever again. I did order the Source Naturals to give it a try, at 10000mcg's per sublingual, at the doses I seem to need, it seems it could be a good option for me at this time. Cost effective wise.

    Would you change your recommendations to me about the trial 51mg knowing my need for it everyday in the dosages I have outlined? Are you thinking that this type of trial might actually be what I need so that my body doesn't scream for this on a daily basis? Should I continue with my normal daily doses after the trial? What's your thinking process here? I value that type of interaction greatly whether I end up agreeing or not. :D

    Laurie
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laurie,

    The 51mg dose is usually a one time trial. It is to test if you have a CSF/CNS adb12 deficiency. If you are at equilibrium in your body, ie effect is maintained from day to day as long as you take the dose, then if you try the 51mg you will either have a central neurological effect or you won't. Many of us with CSF/FMS or tendency towards it have a difficulty getting cobalamins, and it can be adb12 and/or mb12 into the CSF/CNS. If this is the case 51mg will make a perceptible difference. If you are already getting sufficient CNS penetration with the dose you are taking, it will make no difference. With what we have since learned about folic acid my experience indicates that we can protect ourselves from the folic acid by taking a tablet half an hour before the 51mg test and each hour during it to compete for absorption and/or transport. If you have an effect, then it would enable you to repeat the trial next month with the Source Naturals and see if it is the same. It may be that the dose you are already taking provides barely enough to the CNS/CSF and that is why you need so much.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laurie,

    It affects my appetite too.
  13. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Hello Freddd,

    Well,....I decided to do the trial with the Source Naturals. After a couple of weeks without the folic acid content in the Country Life, and all the improvements I have been seeing, especially my very vocal skin; One would literally have to pry my mouth open and force me to take that particular product with its folic acid content again.

    My trial ended at 6:30 this evening. I haven't suffered anything adverse.

    Cool. I was really hoping you wouldn't think that was out there. That observation just hit me a couple of days ago.

    So....here's another observation. Blepharitis. Mine seems to have improved greatly in the last few days. This has been an ongoing issue for quite sometime, years. I am not sure what to correlate this too, could this also be related to folic acid?

    Laurie
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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  15. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    The earlier posts on this thread are starting to make a little sense to me now. I do have some further questions in which I would like your input on if you have time.

    DAO, is there a relation to MAO?
    I seem to be having intermittent problems with what I suspect are amines. I recently went through a short lived bout of trimethyluramenia. sp? I have had short bouts with it throughout my life, although previously I don't know what helped them, but recently I restarted extra B2.

    DAO, do you have the SNP normals and abnormals, and which SNP's are signifigant?

    I have more questions based on your answers. Thank you very much.

    Laurie
  16. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    I swear I looked and didn't find anything, and now today, I found an answer to one of my burning questions.

    The SNP's or better said the specific alleles associated with DOA and histamine intolerance, dysfunctions.

    Abstract
    To cite this article: Maintz L, Yu C-F, Rodrguez E, Baurecht H, Bieber T, Illig T, Weidinger S, Novak N. Association of single nucleotide polymorphisms in the diamine oxidase gene with diamine oxidase serum activities. Allergy 2011; 66: 893-902.

    ABSTRACT: Background:? Histamine intolerance (HIT) is associated with an excess of histamine because of an impaired function of the histamine-degrading enzyme diamine oxidase (DAO). The genetic background of HIT is unknown yet.

    Methods:? Case-control association study of all haplotype tagging and four previously reported DAO SNPs and one HNMT Single nucleotide polymorphism with symptoms of HIT and DAO serum activity in 484 German individuals including 285 patients with clinical symptoms of HIT and 199 controls.

    Results:?
    Diamine oxidase serum activity was significantly associated with seven SNPs within the DAO gene. The minor allele at rs2052129, rs2268999, rs10156191 and rs1049742 increased the risk for a reduced DAO activity whereas showing a moderate protective effect at rs2071514, rs1049748 and rs2071517 in the genotypic (P?=?2.1??10(-8) , 7.6??10(-10) , 8.3??10(-10) , 0.009, 0.005, 0.00001, 0.006, respectively) and allelic genetic model (P?=?2.5??10(-11) , 5.4??10(-13) , 8.9??10(-13) , 0.00002, 0.006, 0.0003, 0.005, respectively). Reporter gene assays at rs2052129 revealed a lower promoter activity (P?=?0.016) of the minor allele. DAO mRNA expression in peripheral blood mononuclear cells of homozygous carriers of the minor allele at rs2052129, rs2268999, rs10156191 was lower (P?=?0.002) than homozygous carriers of the major allele.

    Diamine oxidase variants were not associated with the HIT phenotype per se, only with DAO activity alone and the subgroup of HIT patients displaying a reduced DAO activity.

    Conclusions:?
    DAO gene variants strongly influence DAO expression and activity but alone are not sufficient to fully effectuate the potentially associated disease state of HIT, suggesting an interplay of genetic and environmental factors.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21488903

    Laurie
  17. tealady

    tealady

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    Laurie, are you saying here the rash came on with hydroxy B12 ? ie B12 seems to be causing a histamine reaction?

    Kerrilyn seems to be saying it was B12 (happened firtst when took a tad more-both Adb12 and Methylb12 togethr, which may have raised thje histamine level suffucently to get a histamine reaction?

    Do either of hyou have any other symtoms tingling I think I read here? how about headache, feeling wiped?
    I suspect this may be my problem as well...only I dont get a rash...just the tingling, wiped..and possibly a headacvhe. I'm suspecting B12 (both hydroxo and methyl and methlyfolate too?- I read here both B12 and folate can raise histamine.
    I had hives as an 11 year old, but not since.
    Got migraines from MSG ( the glutamate part I guess??)
    Amines as in food like cheese(pizza) beer which normally dont bother me if I have infrequently, but weekly I did figure I never felt that great after pizza the next day..didnt know why? THEN (night b4 last) I took a tiny amount of methylfolate after eating the pizza and beer & it seemed to wipe me out and give me a headache.

    B12 causes intense tingling (perhaps faintly over whole body) but intensely in soles of feet and palms of hands with burning sensation-sometimes worryingly intense
    When I first started (around 2002? ) I had extreme reactions with plams of hands anmd soles of feet turning a reddish/puplish colour with the tingling, they still go a reddish shade but not as in intense..and nor is the tingling. My Mum has a similar plams of hands/soles of feet reaction.
    Aspirin seems to help cut the reaction (Mum is on daily mini aspirin and didnt seem to get the reaction this time)
    Does this mean its histamine related. If aspirin does help how does that work?
    Possibly VitC may help-unsure of that, or VitC with aspirin? I'm trying to recall what else I've tried...sorry memory is poor...


    I had a really badreaction to scandonest (dental anesthetic)-face swelling once but no idea if related

    I also had an extreme flush from trying once some niacin (one tablet only of 100mg I think) back in 2003 to 2005 period(I was trialling B12 then too)...I tried again at 50mg for a few days and was OK? I forget what happened after this, but I did discontinue for some reason...? hmmm , no recall of this at all, only the negative reaction...
    Is this histamine related too?

    maybe we need to take this histamine reducing tablets before the B12?
    I will edit this post to put in link to my other post here
    and the next few in thread (2086-2090)

    I also think maybe lecithin helps and perhaps DHEA in reducing the anxiety and tingling?
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...ed-as-of-Today&p=186349&viewfull=1#post186349

    looking for feedback from anyone else and thoughts on all of this
  18. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Hi tealady,

    After so much I have read here, I believe many of us have continuing problems with this particular area. There seems to be a particular connection between the CFS sufferers and the amine oxidases, MAO-A and DAO. I am a +/+ for MAO-A, and I am looking into the DAO SNP's.

    After doing some extensive reading here, I don't think it is the B12 that 'causes' our problems, but it surely does coincide with them. Taking B12 would supply the methylation cycle and cause it turn, very simply put. The problem with histamine as I understaqnd it, is that once that happens, then the next limiting factor would become the folate cycle and whatever mutations we have there. Of which I do.

    As I have learned, folate is at the center of high histamine. Not in its production, but its breakdown and in two ways. I quote Rich VanK in saying....

    High histamine occurs in people who are getting folic acid as their main source of folate, but are not able to convert it readily to the active, chemically reduced forms of folate. This can be due to an inherited slow version of the DHFR (dihydrofolate reductase), which normally carries out this reduction. The activivty of this particular enzyme varies by a factor of five, or 500%.

    Folate normally impacts the degredation of histamine levels in two ways. One is that the normal breakdown of histidine in which histamine is derived from, requires THF (tetrahydrofolate), a reduced form of folic acid in which is referred to as a folate. Deficiency in this, this being THF is what can be seen on UA's as an elevated FIGLU (formiminoglutamate).

    The second way folate not folic acid impacts histamine levels is that the intracellualar breakdown of histamine is carried out by the MTR (methyltransferase) reaction, and this depends on having adequate methylation capacity, which depends on Vitamin B12 and methylfolate, one of the reduced forms of folic acid.

    So I myself believe due to all the mutations that was found in my folic acid cycle, that not enough caused the problem versus introducing them. It also correlates with what Freddd has mentioned, in that a reaction is a positive sign you are deficient. The problem comes with the problems associated with exactly that. It would seem the symptoms are so severe when introducing these to some, that it has to be done in such minute small amounts in order to counter the severity of the introduction.

    I believe part of that is the result of jump starting those two cycles. But I also believe some of the excititory symptoms in which make it so unbearable to many are also related to the effects of finally supplying the folate cycle and it starting to work. And I believe it is here, that the connection to the amine oxidases, and MAO-A are taking place. And its the MAO-A and its mutations in which result in a decreased level of the breakdown of neurotransmitters in which seem to coincide with the severity of the symptoms associated with the introduction of Vitamin B 12 and methylfolate.

    After looking at the mutations I have, I shouldn't have a huge problem in converting hydrox B12, although I would have some. Not enough to not use it. So I believe the introduction of Hydroxy and keep in mind I was using reduced forms of B12 and methylfolate along with it, ...so I believe thats exactly what happened with the histamine and mast cell reactions in my particular case. Perhaps this may also apply to others, or atleast should be considered. But let me make it clear, I am still using the reduced forms of B12, the adenosyl and methyl B12, and am adding an additional small amount of hydroxy. I am adding this to my original post here, to make sure I am more clear.

    Some other things I have heard concerning this particular issue, is low cortisol of which we all also seem to have in common. Cortisol counters histamine.

    I have also run across conversations mentioning the methyl trap and over driving the methylation system concerning histamine.

    I have heard directly from Rich VanK, as perhaps a copper deficiency might exist if there were problems with DAO. I would like to know more about this particular aspect, and its relation if any, to MAO-A.

    [histamine-N-methyltransferase is another term used for Rich VanK above explanation I quoted.]

    I don't know if the intestines can be equated to the chicken versus the egg, but what I am finding in myself, is that everything that my intestines should have or should be doing, aren't.

    I had that too when I started the methyl and adenosyl B12's. That to me just indicated neurological damage, and the nerves starting to come back on line. I know Freddd has talked about this extensively. Perhaps he will chime in.

    Where as my blood was abnormally thick prior to starting a methylation program last year, it is no longer. I haven't taken aspirin in quite a long time. This would be a question for either Rich or Freddd to answer as I am not comfortable making an observation in this particular area.

    Niacin works in tandem with the folate cycle, so perhaps taking it without adequate levels or reduced folic acid accounts for some of the reaction you had as well as problems with breakdown of the histamine release discussed above.

    I just recently had a prolonged, toxic type of reaction to niacin, of which I have been taking for quite sometime and never had that kind of reaction before. So I don't believe a prolonged, toxic type of reaction to niacin would be confined to just the reduced forms of folate, there has to be another limiting factor, and again, Rich and Freddd would know those much better. Perhaps they will address this too?

    There is a product called Daosin, that can be acquired at iherb among other places. What I didn't like, was that it only comes in packages of 7 or 14 I believe.

    The lecithin would be helpful in the nerve damage and healing incited by the B12, the phosphitdyl's, nerve sheath healing. DHEA a hormone addressing neurotransmitters, adrenals, etc. I am not a fan of either for varied reasons.

    Most lecithin on the market is derived from GMO soy. I don't do GMO. And soy gives me one hell of a headache.

    DHEA, I would rather have physician involvement in instead of blind trial and error. Thats just a me thing. I have taken it, but only under supervision and advice counsel.

    Here's to getting to the bottom of this. I know this subject has been beaten to death, but I think thats because so many of us have these severe reactions without really a resolution.

    Laurie
  19. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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  20. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, LaurieL.

    Thanks for letting us know this. I guess your immune system must have started responding to these guys when you lifted the partial methylation block. I'm glad you were

    able to track them down and treat them.


    Best regards,

    Rich

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