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Rash/Lesion Start Up From Methylation Protocols

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by LaurieL, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Vegas,

    I haven't appreciated a noticeable difference between different ratios of methyl/adenosyl.

    This tends to be a rather subtle thing. It mostly can't be appreciated until a person has reached an appreciable level of equilibrium and startup responses have all faded, perhaps 9-12 months in after a person has reached a point where further increases in mb12 make no noticeable difference. I am in position to recognize it more clearly because of the relatively limited interchange I have amongst types of cobalamin. Based on history I have some interchange but probably not as much as you. I was 9 months in on mb12 and I had enough interchange that my mitochondria were working pretty well by that time but not as well as after the adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate where there is enough for CNS/CSF penetration. Mood and personality changes are the most affected by the ratio. And some people have found that too much adb12 compared to mb12 induces changes similar to an actual deficiency of mb12 in mood and personality. What the exact ratio is however, varies considerably from person to person and comes into play during the fine tuning portion of things.

    One possibility relates to the fact that Methylmalonyl Coenzyme A mutase uses adenosyl as a cofactor. In this regard some benefits could be ascribed to the relative abundance of adenosyl to facillitate this reaction. Methylmalonyl Coenzyme A mutase is involved in the catalyst of Methylmalonyl-CoA to Succinyl-Coenzyme A, which is comprised of succinic acid and Co-Enzyme A. As I suspect you know this enzyme is critically involved in fatty acid synthesis and the Kreb's Cycle...core problems in CFS.

    Yes, that is is the purpose of adb12 in the mitochindria. It is aided by the transport of fats into the cell by l-carnitine fumarate and that is increased about 50% according to research by Alpha Lipoic acid. Sufficiency allows energy generation in muscles and neurons. This invloves that whole area of exercise intolerance, muscle atrophy, mood and personality changes. It is critically important, but is still just one function. I was able to convert enough to allow some of this to occur but not for new muscles tissue to form or for mitochondria to increase in existing muscle. That changed in literally one day when I actually tried adb12. When I added the L-carnitine fumarate and the alpha lipoic acid my aerobic exercise period changed overnight from 17 minutes, which was a struggle to reach, to 34 minutes easily.

    Do you have a replacement brand of adenosyl you could recommend--one without folic acid?

    Very unfortunately no. However, I think taking it in a method that limits the hours of folic acid in the serum is important to being able to tolerate it. So it appears that a single larger dose that achieves a deeper tissue penetration each few days or week would minimize folic acid exposure and still maintain adb12 equilibrium.

    If adenosyl can repeatedly, by itself, produce reactions, that are suspended when it is discontinued, I think there is a good chance its use has a causative role.

    I think that is only happening because you are not at an mb12 equilibrium such as produced by 20mg or so sublingual daily.

    Are you suggesting that what I perceive as "detox" symptoms are purely correlated to a vitamin deficiency and are not side effects of increased detoxification and immune response?

    This is more complicated. Let's start with "perceive". I started out at the MGH neurology forum. Everybody there had neurological problems that were perceived as their primary problem, some quite advanced and in wheel chairs. After that board was taken over by trolls I went elsewhere, wrongdiagnosis forums. I joined an ongoing b12 deficiency forum that was already in progress. At that forum/thread, which is near 3000 views a day now, lots and lots of people come by. They perceive their main problems as mysterious or b12 deficiency or neurological or a wide variety of things. For the most part they have done little reading on "detox" ideas. It has a bunch of vegetarians and people in a wide variety of stages of the problems including a substantial portion who clearly have FMS/CFS but have docs reluctant to diagnose them with anything. There is a lot of that universal diagnosis of "Its All In Your Head" (IAIYH) which we see around here too. Then there is this board. I've been kicked off a few others by saying things the management didn't like, such as vitamins that are not the house brand or saying there is a cure for a lot of folks who have made their identity as FMS/CFS victims and want to be supported in that. Petty tyrant types don't like me.

    However, despite the wide difference in diagnoses and perceptions, the symptoms at all three of the main boards I have posted at are virtually identical. They all draw from the same universe of symptoms as are in the list I have posted here and there, and while there is some variability in which ones each person has, they all have lots of them from most every category. Looking at the symptoms you could not tell the populations of the boards apart or who was likely to be at which board. As the list includes discreet and overlapping of symptoms of body-adb12, body-mb12, CNS/CSF-adb12, CNS/CSF-mb12 and methylfolate what is seen is clusters of which deficiency sets the people have. But again, that is an individual distinction that is not readily apparent when looking at the populations.

    The biggest single difference is that many people at this board have already tried a hydroxycbl plus folinic acid based protocol whereas at the other boards they have generally used cyanocbl and/or hydroxycbl but NOT folinic acid. What was apparent from day one is that those taking the hycbl plus folinic acid had far more, far worse and far longer intensification of a symptoms set they called "detox" reactions. Those symptoms are for the most part on the list and are usually a combination of severe folate deficiency symptoms and a worsening of part of the b12 deficiency symptoms. These are different from the "startup response" symptoms which tend to end within a few months as the cause of the symptoms heals whereas here I have met many who have had "detox" without end, sometimes for years. When they confuse the "startup" response symptoms with the "detox" symptoms they often go off the items that cause the startup symptoms, which go away in a couple of days usually without the mb12 whereas the "detox" often go on and on without letup after they stop the things that caused it. As the "startup" response symptoms are the same in all the forum populations regardless of the perceived primary complaint and/or diagnoses but are similar based on symptoms, there is nothing to distinguish the populations except what they call that intial response to mb12/methylfolate. If they call it "startup response" and consider them to be signposts to healing, they heal. If they call them detox and stop the active protocol because of them, they don't heal. If they are taking folinic acid and hycbl the "detox" continues indefinitely in many cases. In the cases of "glutathione detox reaction" or "NAC detox reaction" they are 100% methylfolate, mb12 and adb12 deficiency symptoms and are quickly reversible with adequate repeated doses of the those. So, while those are clearly sloppy language usages, the misperception of those as "detox" makes them untreatable instead of readily and quickly reversible though if they are allowed to go on long enough for damage the damage takes awhile to heal, or not, depending upon severity.

    Is it your view that taking methyl/adenosyl/methylfolate does not have the capacity to increase glutathione and improve the functioning of the immune system? Do you think that these changes would take place without any symptomatic response?

    Again, some of this at least is perceptual. I've had people tell me that their response to and absorbed dose of 100-200 mcg of mb12 starting less than an hour after starting the sublingual is detox. Whatever effect that mb12 has on the immune system, and it does have an effect, takes place starting in days, not minutes and hours. And consider that 200mcg of absorbed mb12 has the methyl group donor capacity of 0.1mg or so of SAM-e which is really very little and would not produce a perceivable effect in anybody. So whatever mb12 is doing at that quantity isn't high powered methylation. Experience indicates that it takes some weeks typically and runs to months for the immune system to get working a lot better. And according to Rich, and I have no reason to doubt what he says on this, the mb12 and cofactors do indeed increase glutathione. I have had another researcher tell me in a phone conversation that "there is no safe way to take glutathione". Only about half of what mb12 does in the body is readily perceivable. Much of it happens below the level of perception.

    Experienced a herxheimer reaction from antibiotics or antifungals

    Yes, from antibiotics with some unidentified resistant pneumonia that responded to the 3rd combination of 3 antibiotics tried. That can happen starting in hours as the antibiotics kills the bacteria outright and spills their toxins into the blood. A herxheimer reaction can be very serious but is mercifully short. and goes on for some hours in most cases. It doesn't go on for weeks or months.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxheimer_reaction
    The Herxheimer reaction (also known as Jarisch-Herxheimer or Herx) occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as bacteria (typically spirochetes) die during antibiotic treatment. It is classically associated with syphilis.
    Typically the death of these bacteria and the associated release of endotoxins occurs faster than the body can remove the toxins. It is manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgia (muscle pain), and exacerbation of skin lesions. Duration in syphilis is normally only a few hours. The intensity of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation present.
    The reaction is also seen in other diseases caused by spirochetes, such as borreliosis (Lyme disease and tick-borne relapsing fever) and leptospirosis, and in Q fever.[1] Similar reactions have also been reported to occur in bartonellosis (including cat scratch disease),[2][3] brucellosis,[4] typhoid fever,[5] and trichinosis.[6]


    However, mb12 doesn't kill bacteria outright and quickly. Instead it repairs the immune system a little at a time until antibodies and white blood cells and such are being normally produced and that takes a while and comes up slowly.

    And again, in the case of metals, a quarter of a mg of mb12 can affect very little metal, if at all, dealing in mcg quanties, very slowly if at all. However, a quater mg of mb12 can trun the volume of the nervous system form barely functioning to high in 60 minutes. A quarter mg of adb12 can kick start 10% of the mitochondria in the body in a few hours. These are very noticeable and necessary and perceived very potent reactions which are often misinterpreted.

    So if you were to describe in specific detail what reactions occurred from mb12 and how quickly it might be possible to identify some as "detox" response. However, it wouldn't be the reactions everybody has regardless of cause of deficiency most likely. It wouldn't likely be the things that happen immediately. And it definitely isn't the things identified as glutathione detox reaction or NAC detox reactions as those are demonstrably outright deficiency symptoms or the intensified deficiency symptoms from folic or folinic acid which are quickly reversable with Metafolin, mb12 and adb12. So far everything I have seen attributed to near instantaneous mercury detox from a fraction of a mg of mb12 for instance has nothing to do with mercury except the idea. And other "detox" reactions would not be the same startup responses everybody else has. I would be interested in seeing identifying what things might actually be real honest to goodness "detox" since most claimed "detox" from mb12. If the word "detox" were not so overused to describe worsened deficiency symptoms or induced deficiency symptoms or the usual startup responses I wouldn't be so skeptical. I've spent a long time at data analysis. In the mb12/adb12/methylfolate world where most deficiency symptoms are attributed to many other things and misdiagnosis is the norm and so few actually experience healing, a multitude of inaccurate diagnoses are the norm and docs have no idea what the path of healing looks like because they have never seen it even once, all sorts of ideas and theories are floated. When hydroxycbl and cyanocbl leave 2/3 of active b12 deficiency symptoms untouched all sorts of wrong theories dominate.

    I am interested is seeing what real genuine mb12/adb12 induced detox actually looks like. I have never seen a convincing description and I've listened to a lot of people describe startup and healing and the things they run into. And if you want to attribute the many things of a usual startup response to detox, then show me why everybody doing it has all these toxins in their body at such high levels. maybe that is normal. Then I went through it too. I went through a very intense multi month set of startup responses. In the first ten days my burning bladder, burning beef-red tongue, burning muscles all stopped burning and stqarted returning to normal. My energy increased tremendously, I could focus my eyes again and so on. I'll try to locate the writeup I did for my docs at the time of the first 3 weeks. All the pains came across in high definition. My symptoms went wild and by the end of 10 days it was clear that I was healing one thing after another. But it took 4 months to settle down. At 9 months I was able to start reducing most of my meds and reduced my pharmacy bill from $1500/month to under $100/month over the next few months. Then it took years of rehabilitation to build up muscles and capacity again. Each time things slowed down I looked for what would intensify (not worsen) the symptoms again and continue healing them. It worked.




    Believing strongly that it is "detox" doesn't make it so.
    S.A. likes this.
  2. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    My own situational concerns...

    Freddd,

    I believe I am one of the approx. up to 50% in which cannot convert folic acid to methylfolate. Yet my need for adenosyl B12 is very apparent to me personally after running out of it recently, and having my well being and energy go down the toilet so quickly.

    If indeed I do have a problem with this particular conversion, and I am taking 30 mcg's of the Country Life product, then I am also getting 2000mgs of folic acid a day. Which may explain several observations I have made known in prior posts. If I indeed do have trouble with this conversion, then a 2000mg dose per day would throw me into a hard folate deficiency. Which is why I believe my methylfolate dosages push over 8000 mcg's of methylfolate, and in which I may have found the ratio of methylfolate to adenosylB12/folic acid in my own personal case. It may also explain your own personal dosages as well.

    And although I have had some wonderful results, and only six months invested, I seem to be stalled. I wonder if it is because I have reached an equilibrium state with the methylfolate, adB12/folinic acid, and am not progressing from there.

    Would it be pertinent to try another product without the folic acid, and evaluate response from there? I am thinking, with a product containing only the adenosyl B12 and without the folic acid, may lower the amount of dosage I need for both in order to maintain my energy and well being, and possibly progress from this "stall".

    I found a product from Holistic Heal site, Yasko's site, in which is in liquid form, but its so expensive. I am going to try it and will report my experiences at a later date.

    Laurie
    S.A. likes this.
  3. kerrilyn

    kerrilyn Senior Member

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    I'm definitely someone who notices a difference between Mb12 and Adb12. I also have a history of working with chemicals yrs ago, developed lead poisoning and MCS, so perhaps that puts me in the 'toxic burden' category. Within a 1/2 hr of taking the Mb12 I'm drowsy/groggy and ready for bed, not so with the Adb12. I've come to rely on the Mb12 as a sleep aid.

    I haven't noticed a lot of other start up symptoms from either one really, but I'm not overly observant. They both give me an odd sensation soon after taking them, which I can't even describe, because I'm so used to odd sensations after all these years. Although with the Mb12 I feel a fluttering in my chest and I was getting a niacin type flush with it as well, but I think that's subsiding.

    Should I be concerned that Mb12 makes me tired? Should I address toxins because of that? I haven't taken anything for 'detox', never have. I do have ALA here and I'm going to start taking it.

    I could be wrong because the majority of this info is way over my head at the moment, but I did the Genova MAP test and my results showed elevated alpha-ketoglutaric acid. It said that "can be due to a specific weakness in the AKA dehydogenase complex that converts AKA to is downstream kreb cycle metabolite, succinic acid. Dehydrogenase enzymes require B1, B2, B3, and lipoic acid. Phosphorylation requiring magnesium is also involved and CoA in needed. CoA is formed from pantothenic acid, cysteine and magnesium and requires phosphorylation and energy from CTP and ATP. Insufficiencies of these nutrients or cofactors may cause elevated AKA." No mention of any B12's. FWIW my MMA values were high, close to out of their ref range.

    So if I have elevated AKA, is that related to the Methylmalonyl Coenzyme A mutase mentioned above? Could that be a possible reason I've benefited so much from Adb12 and perhaps I should try pantothenic acid as well?
  4. kerrilyn

    kerrilyn Senior Member

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    Freddd, can you explain what you mean by slow turnover of adb12 in mitochondria? Is it simply that a little goes a long way or that it stays in the mitochondria longer and doesn't need to be 'refilled' as often. I'm taking Adb12 every day and much higher ratio of it to Mb12.

    I was taking the B-Right and Folapro together and then Mb12 an hour after, and the 3 seem to help me sleep. Am I to understand now that taking B-Right and Folapro together is not ideal? Folapro as folinic acid in not beneficial? I'm confused. And Country Life is not great because it has Folic Acid in it? As it stands now, with the benefits it's given me someone would have to pry it out of my cold dead hands for me to give that up. LOL
  5. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    Laurie, the liquid forms of B12 are not so good because sublinguals are absobed much better.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kerilyn,

    The adb12 sits in the mitochondria and appears to stay there more or less indefinitely. As cells turn over and are absorbed the adb12 finds it's way back into the blood. It appears that new cells don't get made if there is no adb12 for the mitochondria. Exercise increases the number of mitochondria in the muscle cells as part of the adaptation to exercise. It takes me more than 2 weeks without adb12 to notice any effect at all as long as I am saturated on mb12. With mb12 that period is 12 hours in my central nervous system and 3 days for the body. The only time I had actual adb12 startup responses all over again was six months after the glutathione ended and I finally tried 4800mcg of Metafolin at somebody's suggestion after the fatigue had already started returning.


    As far as Folapro, it is currently being listed as a generic form of methylfolate. The thing about the Merck Metafolin is that they learned how to make a stable form of methylfolate. Also Folapro is 30 cents per tablet and and Solgar Metafolin can be had at 13 cents per tablet. My experience is that taking folic acid at the same time as Metafolin blocks the Metafolin. Also that taking folinic acid (longer serum halflife) at any time of day partially blocks the Metafolin for all day.

    What I don't know is who this applies to. It is clear that the people experiencing "detox" from folic or folinic acid are affected. It may be connected to the genetics of 50% or so of the population. It might not be. I am thinking currently that it might be that this response to folic/folinic acid is an actual root cause of FMS/CFS since the blocking of folate will also make b12 ineffective in all the functions in which folate also participates, such as methylation.
    S.A. likes this.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi kerilyn,

    No mention of any B12's. FWIW my MMA values were high, close to out of their ref range.

    That is a flaw in their description.

    So if I have elevated AKA, is that related to the Methylmalonyl Coenzyme A mutase mentioned above? Could that be a possible reason I've benefited so much from Adb12 and perhaps I should try pantothenic acid as well

    Pnatethine is the active version. From the old days of Adele Davis, pantethenic acid was one of the "adrenal boosters" along with liver (b12 source).
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laurie,
    I would suggest that you mean 30mg of adb12 instead of 30mcg and 2000mcg of folic acid and not 2000mg.

    Another piece of evidence that this is the case with folic acid is that the Country Life adb12 always caused much more redness in my urine than a like amount of mb12, or even 5x as much mb12, much like glutathione. Metafolin reduces that to almost zero. If the Metafolin is being blocked then that could explain why the adb12 produces so much more redness in the urine. I suspect that if we could get that product without folic acid it would be a lot more effective.

    How do you currently take it? I'm going to go back to my earlier style of taking it as one large dose only as often as I need to keep it in my CNS/CSF. That needs the large dose for the CSF penetration. I haven't taken it in two days and am already feeling better in many ways. I would suggest that you take it at most once a day in a single large or larger dose for now, and maybe experiment with every other day or every 1.5 days or whatever, as long as you can without adverse consequences. Also. take it at a different time of day, at least 6 hours, different, 12 hours if you can from your mb12 and metafolin doses. I have found the metafolin best taken as at least 4 separate doses during the day. I know what you mean about "stalled". That has been my battle over and over. Are you taking the l-carnitine fumarate and Alpha lipoic acid?
  9. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    You are correct. I take 10 metafolin per day with my current 10 per day of the Country Life. 10 x 800mcg of metafolin = 8000mcg's metafolin. 10 x 3 mgs of Country life or 30,000mcgs and at 200 mcg's per sublingual of Country Life of folic acid x 10 = 2000mcg's folic acid. I also take BRight twice per day in which contains another 400mcg's per capsule = another additional 800 mcgs on top of the 2000 mcg's from the Country Life adB12. For a grand total and a ratio of 2800 mcg's of folic acid to 8000 mcgs of metafolin. Approx. a 3:1 ratio of methylfolate to folic acid in which I identify as an equilibrium state and I also identify with what I have termed a "stall" in my progression.

    It is your similar experiences to my own dosages, in which triggered my observations concerning the folic acid. When starting your protocol, it was with concern for folic acid/metafolin.

    I would go back and correct my mistake, but I hesitate to do so, so that others can follow the progression in the thread.

    I find this very interesting as well as it mirrors some of my own experiences as well. I posted on this on one of the threads here. I also experienced the red in the urine, but it was a single occurence, lasting for a period of days and then dissappeared. This occured after raising my 6400 mcg dose of metafolin to 8000mcg. But here's a monkey wrench. At the time when I ran out of the adB12, I was also running dangerously low on metafolin. So I used the folinc acid I had left to replace 800 mcg's of metafolin in my total dose per day. This was just so I had enough to get through until my delivery date of the adB12 and the metafolin. So my equilibrium ratio dose was skewed at the point in which I experienced the reddening of my urine. Again, related to the folic and folinic acid I believe, and still supports the correlation of folic/folinic acid interference.

    There is more I want to address with the adenosyl and the mitochondria especially. At a later time.

    I have had a great response and improvement in my own condition by following your beggining protocol recommendations. B Right twice per day. I take the methyl B, the adB, and the metafolin together. At dosages of 20000 mcg's or 4 sublingual of methyl B, 12000 mcg's or 4 sublinguals of adB12, and 3200 mcg's or 4 tablets of metafolin. I take all three as a sublingual dose, yes, even the metafolin and at the same time. I do this twice per day. First thing in the morning, and around 5 pm. Between these times, I took 2 of each at the four hour mark after waking. This would be 1000 am and also another loading dose at 10 pm of two each. It may vary depending on my work schedule for the day, but mostly, I do all three at the same time, 2 large doses and then 2 smaller doses between. So, our four doses per day are similar, although I have two high dose doses and two smaller dose doses.

    (Clarification) This is what I have been doing currently for about a month and a half. Prior to that, I took two each, all at the same time, at about the four to five hour mark)

    Yes on L-Carnitine fumarate and ALA.

    As far as the Country Life adB12, I don't want to change to many parameters while testing my observations concerning folic acids. So until I get my order from Holistic heal for the liquid adB12, I don't plan on changing my strategy or my dosages and timing. I believe that would change the overall dynaminic and impede my ability to evaluate the response soley to folic acid. And since I have not experienced a "back slide" per say, and seem to be only in a "stall" I will continue with the ad b12 as usual. I expect my order to be here monday. And of which the only thing that will change at that point in my investigations will be the amount of folic acid I am actually taking. I am more interested in the crazy high dosages I seem to need and how those may change. I believe this will tell us the most information about our suspicions. And from there we can progress.

    Now there is the arguement that liquid sublingual is inferior to tablet sublingual. That I would like to discuss more thoroughly again. Because at this point, and based on my own previous experiences with liquid sublinguals, I am just not convinced that liquid is inferior to tablet sublingual. I welcome all opinions. I always look to disprove my own hypothesis'.

    Laurie
  10. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    Been thinking more on the actual breakdown and dosages I have been doing.

    At two doses, the higher doses, the ratio works out to approx 4:1 in favor of the adB12/folic acid to methyfolate.

    At the other smaller doses, the ratio works out to approx. 3:1 in favor of methylfolate to the adB12/folic acid.

    Before changing the folic acid concentrations, do you think it might be pertinent to test the 4:1 and 3:1 ratios before changing folic acid concentration? I think this is similar to what you were saying in your previous post? But instead of adB12 every so often (days), hows about adB12 in which methylfolate ratio dominates more often in smaller doses throughout the day. And you know, come to think about it, it was doing it this way, that I was having gangbuster results in the beginning.

    Then test the discontinuation of folic acid with the liquid in the subsequent step and see where the ratio goes from there?

    Your doses and experiences are similar to my own. Should one of us do it this way and the other do it the other way and see what we come up with that way? This is your baby, you make the call.

    Laurie
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi laurie,

    I need to think about the data design on this.

    My concern is that the drops might not get into serum adequately.

    What "leading edge" folate deficiency symptoms/signs do you reliably demonstrate?

    I get started hours before and 12 hours at least after the previous folic acid. I didn't take any folic acid with Metafolin and mb12 for a long time. That got me into trouble. When I added adb12 to that I started having the folate deficiency symptoms. I end the day the same way with mb12/Metafolin separated from folic acid by at least 4 hours. I do a mid day dose of metafolin/mb12 several hours before dinner/folic acid. I don't have the folate deficiency symptoms that way but it takes a lot of Metafolin.


    So how would your proposed schedules coordinate with the folic acid and Metafolin?
  12. kerrilyn

    kerrilyn Senior Member

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    So, you personally notice that folic/folinic acid blocks the benefits of Metafolin, but that's not what other people (such as Laurie and Danny) report as 'detox' symptoms in regards to the Folic/Folinic acid, is it? What are some of the 'detox' symptoms? Headaches/fatigue?

    FWIW, I think the B-Right has a sedative effect on me. I just remembered that I found this in the summer when I took these supps in the morning. I had to nap after taking them and one by one I eliminated them and sourced it back to the B-Right. I didn't take the B-Right last night and didn't fall asleep as quickly as I do when I take it. Any thoughts why it knocks me out?

    I'm taking the amount of Jarrow Mb12 again I was when that niacin type flush occurred and it's not happening now.

    On a side note, I'm taking small amounts of these supps and yet I've improved. I shoveled very HEAVY snow on Friday....which wasn't smart but I did it anyway....and while I had some aches and PEM, it was quite mild. Had some POTS problems (light-headedness) since, which is not surprising, but before starting this supps I couldn't have done such strenuous activity (or much lesser activity) without being in agony and very ill in bed for days.
  13. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    Recognize the sedative effect of folic acid. Yesterday I took 2400 mg methylfolate and 200 mg folic acid in the morning and I had again a very deep dreamless sleep. 800mg methylfolate without folic acid is enough to make me dream. I think I just stop the dibenzocide that comes with folic acid: source naturals has one that comes without folic acid, I might try that. Btw at customcapsules you can design your own multivitamincapsule.
  14. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    About the drops getting into serum. If it is absorbed through the mucosa, and from my previous observations about the reactions I have had to other drop like supplements, then I really feel it will go to serum. Since the sublinguals thus far are in tablet, powder form, it would make good sense that time exposure for absorption would have to take place. But liquid drops are not powder, and quite easily absorbed without the time exposure needed for what we are doing currently in the powdered forms. Provided it is allowed to absorb, and not swallowed immediately or followed with drinking liquids or food.

    All of you have probably discussed this at one time or another, but since I wasn't a part of that, nor can I find those particular discussions, perhaps there is a point I am missing?

    I just posted a symptoms list to you in which did not get a response either. But my leading edge folate symptoms I believe to be related to the folic acid exposure are as follows.

    One of the biggest indicators to me that something was going on with the Country Life adB12, was that when I ran out, I started my menses after cessation I experienced shortley after starting your methylation recommendations. At the same time my fatigue and sense of well being went down the toilet and very quickly. Others have mentioned when they cross their legs their limbs go to sleep, of when sleeping, yadi ya. Those symptoms seem to have increased as of late. My headaches returned for a short spell and have dissappeared again. My pinky fingers and my toes all go ice cold as of late as well. It has seemed to be cresendo-ing in the last few weeks, but when I ran out of the Country Life, it suspended for a little bit and then came back worse when re-starting it.

    Also, my skin is one of the "loudest" indicators I have. And since restarting I have had both improvements in some things and worsening of others. I work very hard, and when I injure myself, my skin is my gauge. Lack of healing, and then sudden surges in healing occur and seem to correlate with folic acid more so than adenosyl B. Also, although quite subjective, my color of blood changes and is quite noticable in my injuries. Where as it used to be more a brownish red, when folic acid exposure goes up, I don't bleed quite as much, and the injuries fail to heal like they should. When folic goes down, I bleed profusely and the color is more normal. I went through the same thing with those lesions and rash, and this went on for months.

    Without the adB12, my fatigue gauge goes way up. The fatigue I associate with folic acid, occurs in a different manner I don't necessarily know quite how to explain the differences.

    I also go through periods of skin tingling, itching, and crawling. Dermatographia is much improved as well as what I associate as nerve involvement with the above feelings from my skin.

    Another huge indicator is my personality. Quite lacking and taking a turn for the worse over the last month or so. And seems to correlate to the Country Life product. Anger, resentment, and negativity. Uch. But my general all day fatigue goes away, and my sense of well being, and perhaps better described as my anxiety level also improves.

    To me, I believe the improvements I have made are due to the adenosyl B. The lack of improvements, and the specific minor backslides I associate with the folic acid.

    As far as proposed schedules, I guess I am not sure what you are trying to convey by using the word "proposed". That is my schedule, is what I am and have been doing for about 5 weeks. And the above descriptions should further explain why I have been suspecting a certain correlations concerning both the folic acid as well as the adB12 doses.

    Laurie
  15. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Kerrilyn,

    Since starting the methylation protocol recommendations, the only time I feel I went through a clear detox is when I added DMG. I knew it was a detox because of the smell of my urine and body fluids. This only lasted for about a week and has not occured since that time. I have had this occur before and it was only while going to the environmental toxicologist. I am looking for my notes on those occurences and trying to find a possible correlation, although the odor differed in those occurences and this one induced by DMG.

    As far as headaches, I personally believe those to be toxin build up and related to ammonia levels in my body.

    Which by the way, also correlates with the time I ran out of adB12.

    Laurie
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    So, you personally notice that folic/folinic acid blocks the benefits of Metafolin, but that's not what other people (such as Laurie and Danny) report as 'detox' symptoms in regards to the Folic/Folinic acid, is it? What are some of the 'detox' symptoms? Headaches/fatigue?



    Hi Kerilyn

    According to one website, http://www.beccashealthtips.com/symptoms.html symptoms for glutathione caused detox reactions are low energy, achy muscles, light headedness, headaches, flu like symptoms, coated tongue, runny nose or allergy symptoms, stomach aches, uneasy digestive tract, fevers, feeling like throwing up, and sometimes old symptoms that have been suppressed.

    The symptoms listed for folate deficiency on other web sites are irritability, depression, sluggishness, forgetfulness, diarrhea, loss of appetite, gastrointestinal complaints, fatigue, macrocytic anemia, paleness, red sore tongue, reduced sense of taste, weight loss, confusion, difficulty walking, loss of reflexes, dementia, muscle weakness, bleeding easily, heart palpitations, behavoral disorders and angular cheilitis.

    These are from my first post at http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showth...duced-Methylb12-and-Methylfolate-Deficiencies

    As time goes on dozens of additional b12 deficiency worsen as this lack of folate intensifies both folate and b12 deficiency symptoms and signs.

    That was what I noticed from the time I started posting here, that almost all the symptoms being called "detox" symptoms were (also?) much more severe selected b12/folate deficiency symptoms that can now be predicted and duplicated that were not occurring with people taking the Metafolin and mb12.

    We also noticed problems with adb12, now both problems caused by adb12/folic-acid and pure adb12 out of balance with mb12.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laurie,

    About the drops getting into serum. If it is absorbed through the mucosa, and from my previous observations about the reactions I have had to other drop like supplements, then I really feel it will go to serum. Since the sublinguals thus far are in tablet, powder form, it would make good sense that time exposure for absorption would have to take place. But liquid drops are not powder, and quite easily absorbed without the time exposure needed for what we are doing currently in the powdered forms. Provided it is allowed to absorb, and not swallowed immediately or followed with drinking liquids or food.

    I really can't say what happens with the liquid. As when I was testing, I saw immediately that time in contact with tissues was critical with tablets. They couple of instant dissolve products that I tried produced no effects as compared to the Enzymatic or Jarrow tablets. Since there was no way to keep them around the minimum criteria time of the normal tablet I didn't include them in the tests. Later I verified the absorption rate compared to injections. The problem with any cobalamin is that they are a huge molecule that was at first thought to not absorb at all without the active IF system. The passive absorbtion wasn't detectable until they tried the Fear Factor pernicious anemia treatment of a half gallon of pureed raw liver and found that it worked. I never tried the drops but I can see no reason they should be hugely quicker if the time of absorption is prolonged because of meolecule size. The ET brand started affecting me in 5 minutes. How much of that was for the tablet getting wetted". Very little since I wet them thoroughly before placing under lip and the red b12 dissolves almost instantly.

    During the 50s and 60s there was study after study "proving" passive absorption because so many doubted that it was possible because of the size of the molecule. Sublingual tablets were doubted to for the same reason. It certainly seem to slow it down. Concerning the folic acid, part of the reason that the 200mcg of folic acid in Country Life seems so potent is this is partly a rapid sublingual absorption.

    So good luck with the mb12 drops. Are you going to do say 1 week on the drops and one week on the ET or Jarrow tablets through several cycles to compare it to a known quality, going back and forth a few times until you can be sure what the differences are if any?

    I just posted a symptoms list to you in which did not get a response either. But my leading edge folate symptoms I believe to be related to the folic acid exposure are as follows.

    Point me at it. I must have missed it as things are going by pretty quickly presently.

    Lack of healing, and then sudden surges in healing occur and seem to correlate with folic acid


    Also, although quite subjective, my color of blood changes and is quite noticable in my injuries. Where as it used to be more a brownish red, when folic acid exposure goes up, I don't bleed quite as much, and the injuries fail to heal like they should. When folic goes down, I bleed profusely and the color is more normal. I went through the same thing with those lesions and rash, and this went on for months.

    Skin problems and rashes are a primary indicator for me of a "folate block", increased inflammation, increased pain in muscles and joints, increased allergic response, runny nose, allergic asthma, nausea, and if longer period, mood and personality changes and a bunch more

    According to one website, http://www.beccashealthtips.com/symptoms.html symptoms for glutathione caused detox reactions are low energy, achy muscles, light headedness, headaches, flu like symptoms, coated tongue, runny nose or allergy symptoms, stomach aches, uneasy digestive tract, fevers, feeling like throwing up, and sometimes old symptoms that have been suppressed.

    The symptoms listed for folate deficiency on other web sites are irritability, depression, sluggishness, forgetfulness, diarrhea, loss of appetite, gastrointestinal complaints, fatigue, macrocytic anemia, paleness, red sore tongue, reduced sense of taste, weight loss, confusion, difficulty walking, loss of reflexes, dementia, muscle weakness, bleeding easily, heart palpitations, behavoral disorders and angular cheilitis.

    Without the adB12, my fatigue gauge goes way up. The fatigue I associate with folic acid, occurs in a different manner I don't necessarily know quite how to explain the differences.

    I do know that difference and don't know really how to explain it either.

    Are you taking the l-carnitine fumarate and Alpha Lipoic acid? If I have asked that before it's because I don't remember everything attached to specific people linked to their names. Also D-ribose can help recycle the ATP.

    I am working on the adb12 problem. For me at least, if Mb12 was the first shoe, then this unexpected foilic/folinic acid problem is about the 8th shoe dropping with a crash. Yikes we are under a giant alien spider dropping it's 5 ton shoes on us.


    As far as proposed schedules, I guess I am not sure what you are trying to convey by using the word "proposed". That is my schedule, is what I am and have been doing for about 5 weeks. And the above descriptions should further explain why I have been suspecting a certain correlations concerning both the folic acid as well as the adB12 doses.


    Ok, I understand now. I was a little confused about what you meant on that post. I am tryong to solve the folic acid problem with a work around related to serum half life, getting the adb12 we need and minimizing the damage from the folic acid by scheduling.
  18. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    Post number 29 and 30, page 3 of this thread.

    http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showth...ion-Start-Up-From-Methylation-Protocols/page3

    Considering my reactions in the past, my symptoms seem to occur rather rapidly, so one week may push it, if I backslide. But yes, on the whole of it. The only thing that I plan to change is my folic acid exposure. By using another form adenosyl B without it. The rest will remain unchanged. There is a tablet form of the adenosyl at Holistic heal site as well, so I may try that and compare the reactions to both each other as well as the Country Life.

    I plan on pursuing arguements either pro or con for other pharma in which is sublingual. I would like to know the particulars with some of them and why they are used in some forms versus others. Perhaps I can stumble on to arguments either pro or con for the use of sublingual tablets over liquids in that manner.

    Although my formal education was decades ago, I seem to remember powdered forms diffusing more slowly, and the doses could be more controlled than liquid sublinguals. Which was an important factor in pharma and for example nitro tabs.

    I hadn't heard you really talk much about the skin problems, so I was thinking I was a lonely one is this area. Would seem it is more common than what I was feeling and am encouraged that I actually might be onto something in my particular case. It also helps to feel not quite so alone. :D

    I have read many passages by you in which talks about your glutithione experience and describing the symptoms. I have NEVER taken glutithione itself. I did at one time take NAC, but that was quite sometime ago. I have also never taken glutamate in a supplemental, knowingly.

    What I find interesting, is when I read about your glutithione experiences, the symptoms you describe also describe my experience with folic acid. I have been comparing these to your descriptions for quite sometime.

    And what you have stated over and over again, and most appreciative of that, is the supplementation of Glutithione and its affect on your folate status. Since I have never taken glutithione nor any recent precursors of it, I kept asking why I was going through the same thing. I have been able to narrow it down to the Country Life product, and was only able to really do so, when I ran out recently. There is no doubt, the Country Life product is connected in my case. I certainly can't speak for others.

    Thank you for putting this list here for others, so anyone later doesn't have to go searching for that information. In post #30, I also added a few additional observations about my own personal condition.

    Yes, yes, and no. Will look more into D-ribose and thank you.

    Many will be interested and look forward to what you come up with.

    Laurie
  19. kerrilyn

    kerrilyn Senior Member

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    I mentioned before I've had a niacin type flush, which is very itchy and unpleasant, when I've taken MB12. The itching lasts about a 1/2 hour and the redness an hour. I now know that this only happens when I take the MB12 and I lay with a hot pad on my low back. The nights I take the MB12 without applying heat I don't have a problem. I read that if you drink hot beverages around the time you take niacin it may increase flushing. Any ideas why the combination of MB12 and heat would cause this?
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Joopiter,

    Since B-right has biotin this wasn't a factor for me and it came down to either hydroxycbl/deteriorated-mb12 and/or folic acid blocking Metafolin for me. As the muscles are able to start contracting and relaxing normally and nerves come back peristalsis can increase in rate and intensity. This normalizes as they heal. With the B-Right twice a day heart palpitations, 24 hour pain cycle and a few other 24 hour cycles went away. Moast of the water soluable b-vits are short halflife.

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