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Race horse-esque urination

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Leon, Sep 14, 2014.

  1. Leon

    Leon

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    I started methylfolate (100mcg) and hydroxocobalamin (500mcg) 6 days ago. I'm definitely more run down: sore throat, lethargic, headachey, etc. But since yesterday I've been urinating more - a lot more, especially today. About every 15 mins.

    Has anyone experienced this as part of their detox profile?

    The only other things that have changed is I've added 200mg of magnesium malate to my 750mg of magnesium citrate; and I'm taking moderate amounts (200mg) of potassium citrate/chelate, which I thought could be impacting on my primary adrenal insufficiency, which tends to cause high potassium that would need excreting ....

    Thanks guys,
    Leon
     
  2. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Yes, I had this too, peeing constantly. I remedied it by taking more methylfolate (and then more B12 to keep the right ratio) on Freddd's advice. The two induced deficiencies caused by methylation start-up are very tricky to work with i.e. potassium and/or folate. That might well be what's happening to you. I've also noticed that taking magn and potassium caused me extra urination, maybe due to my high aldosterone (potassium anyway).
     
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  3. Leon

    Leon

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    @helen1 - thanks for this. Just curious what ratio of methylfolate:B12 worked for you? Presumably, it was mb12? I'm taking hydroxo. I'm surprised I need more methylfolate on such a low dose of b12.
     
  4. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    The need for extra folate can be caused by methylation induced folate deficiency (freddd calls it paradoxical folate deficiency) which requires extra folate until your methylation gets stabilized. It's a temporary thing caused by methylation startup. Some people have needed really large amounts of folate to counter this sudden drain, similar to the potassium dump that most people experience.

    I'm not sure I have the right ratio of the active B12s and folate for me yet. It seems that 5:1 (B12:folate) is about right for many people. I'm taking about 2:1 at the moment having tried 5:1 and experienced problems. But it's difficult to know what caused the problems. Typical problems apart from the potassium and folate drains include too much or too little of the methylation cofactors such as the other Bs and zinc.

    Am taking the active B12s, methylB12 and adenosylB12.

    Have you read Caledonia's document? If not I'd say it's a must read for anyone embarking on a methylation plan:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ks-to-successful-methylation-treatment.29273/
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland posted recently re increased urination. She's been working forensically to track her reactions. I don't remember the context, you might search her posts
     
  6. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I recommend you to have pH strips at hand and test your urine. In my case of frequent, high volume urination I found out three underlying factors:
    • magnesium deficiency
    • high uric acid and consequent
    • high acididy
    At that point I was also salicylate intolerant. So my kidneys would work nonstop filtering the acidity out. When I remembered to check the urine pH it was 4.5. So I dissolved 1/2 - 3/4 cup in the bathtub and took baths three days in a row for about 15-20 min. I also raised my Mg supplementaion in the form of Mg oxide from 400mg/day to 600mg/day, but your Mg intake seems to be enough.

    Other than that, antibiotics and garlic have a high diuretic effect for me. It's known that antibiotics reduce Mg levels. I don't know about garlic, perhaps it is about the sulfur's chelating effect.

    Before that, my problem was solved overnight but not with long lasting effect when I went gluten free one year ago and when I took my 1st 500mcg of mB12 in late January. So now I see that in both occasions I was Mg deficient and that is why it didn't last.

    I hope this helps.

    izzy

    Edited to add that I took SODIUM BICARBONATE baths.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
    boo85, helen1 and zzz like this.
  7. Leon

    Leon

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    Thanks for much for the thoughts. I think I hopefully combat the chances of gout and acidic urine by taking sodium ascorbate. But, re: B12, it seems from my reading of the helpful posts is that increased urine output can be both a consequence of low mB12 and not having the ratio of methylfolate:B12 right - which, I guess, is akin to saying that the problem can be due to either. With that said, the only sources I can find in the science literature about increased urination is from B12 deficiency. I'm beginning to wonder if my taking hB12 (because I'm COMT++, VDR Taq +-) is not getting my mB12 high enough (because I'm MTRR ++). If that's the case, I might have to invent a new ratio of methylfolate:hB12, which takes into account my poor conversion status - or I'll have to do a trial of mB12 and methylfolate close to a 2:1 to see how I get on.

    Curiously, I haven't taken any hB12 or methylfolate today, and I'm still needing to pee quite a bit.
     
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Your kidneys are desperately trying to purge the magnesium excess.

    izzy
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    According to http://www.acu-cell.com/acn2.html:

    Magnesium Synergists:
    Chromium, zinc, boron, CoQ10, Vitamin B2,
    Vitamin B6, insoluble fiber, [calcium,* Vitamin D*].

    Magnesium Antagonists / Inhibitors:
    Sodium, potassium, iron, selenium, copper, lithium,
    silicon / silica, manganese, Vitamin A, Vitamin B1,
    Vitamin C, Vitamin E, niacin / niacinamide, PABA,
    Vitamin K, folate, choline, uric acid, alcohol, w6 (e.g.
    primrose, pumpkin seed oil), [calcium,* Vitamin D*].

    I think both synergists and antagonists will help to lower excess Mg.

    The effect of the ones between [ *] are dose-dependent.
     
  10. Leon

    Leon

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    @Gondwanaland: I'm finding today that I have very small and clear amounts of diarrhea now and again. I wonder if that's magnesium. Thing is: I don't understand why this would happen, unless the mg malate I started taking a few days ago has tipped me over the edge. I know people who take 20g of magnesium each day, and 1g is extraordinary. I have reduced my mg a lot today, and certainly I've experienced less urination. I'm also taking b's, vit C, sodium, potassium, lithium. zinc. One thing I did find in the literature was that lithium increases serum magnesium. Elsehwere, though, it says it can cause deficiencies in minerals like magnesium due to 'fight for site'. I've been taking 1.2mg of lithium per day for about two weeks now.

    I've also increased my potassium a bit. What do you think about the possibility of all this being due to low potassium?

    Thanks for your help on this. It's rather worrisome.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    If you increase your Mg intake it will create an increased need for K+. So I think you need to reset your electrolytes and take the minimum needed - you have to feel WELL from the amounts you take.

    I took 600mg of Mg for 4-6 weeks and started to get loose stools at the end of this period. Now I am taking 400mg and am comfortable again. I think I replenished my Mg stores and now I only need a maintenance dose because I am taking B vitamins which increase the Mg needs anyway.

    izzy
     
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  12. Leon

    Leon

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    @Gondwanaland: thank you! You're a star. Maybe this is all a sign that I am starting to heal!

    Leon
     
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  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    It probably IS :thumbsup::balloons:
     
  14. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    So, can folks share what types of Mg they are taking? I'm fairly sure my Mg is low... based on symptoms, and discussions I've had. BUT, the only form of Mg I've been able to tolerate without immediate explosive diahhrea (even on a miniscule fragment of a dose... is epsom salt baths. The fact that the baths are trememdously helpful with my chronic pain is another clue I need more besides the methylation treatment.

    I don't tolerate topical Mg oils either - break out in hives. Because that seemed like an obvious way (to me) to try to get more in without going through digestion.
     
  15. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    That's the key for you. You reduced it, and your frequent urination decreased. Some people need a lot, some don't need any at all (except from foods). I think it all depends on kidney function, adrenal function. aldosterone, etc. The same goes for supplemental potassium. Just because it helps some, may not mean it's right for everyone.

    I've almost never found benefit from magnesium supplementation, and perhaps that's because I tend to crave sodium, suggesting aldosterone/adrenal issues. People always recommend magnesium for muscle cramps and twitching, and say calcium makes it worse. I've found the exact opposite to be true, but we're all different.
     
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  16. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks for this info @helen1 . I'm going to try restarting the methylfolate, and also the folinic, which has been the most helpful for me. Not as stimulating as methylfolate...
     
  17. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Okay, now I'm confused @helen1 . Doesn't high aldosterone mean one retains water and doesn't have frequent urination, or did yours get worse when you added the potassium?
     
  18. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    I was confused too because it just didn't make sense to have high aldosterone, low blood pressure and excessive urination. Potassium would make it worse yes. A recent test though showed normal aldosterone, so not sure how or why that changed.
     
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  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    He was taking magnesium in excess for his system and was having magnesium toxicity. The way the body gets rid from excess magnesium is through increased urination.

    If you have frequent, high volume urination it usually is due to low magnesium, like it was my case. After sometime taking lots of magnesium, I healed my urination problems and started to urinating more after taking even small doses of magnesium. Then I knew I could stop my supplementation. Now I only take magnesium when I take an electrolyte mix or vitamin B6.
     
  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    Just want to point out a couple of things:

    Excessive urination is called polyuria, and there is a range of possible causes, e.g. see here. There are several threads on the subject.

    Aldosterone does indeed increase fluid retention, not excretion. It also increases sodium retention. Its release is triggered by angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE), thus ACE inhibitors (commonly for high blood pressure) can increase fluid and sodium loss, and are looking to be not as safe as they were thought to be. There is a thread on that here.
     
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