The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
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R-lipoic acid or n-acetyl cysteine: which of these just messed me up?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by paul_k, Dec 11, 2015.

  1. paul_k

    paul_k

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    Hi

    Hoping someone might have an insight into what might be going on for me at the moment.
    I was with my doctor on Monday and he prescribed 2 new supplements apparently to help with the die off/herx I know I will experience when I take a herbal antimicrobial and to help with brain inflammation which he attributes to a leaky blood brain barrier.


    The 2 supplements in question are "c-rla" and "cytoquel" both by researched nutritionals.

    https://www.researchednutritionals.com/store/item.cfm?code=CRN141

    https://www.researchednutritionals.com/store/item.cfm?code=CRN145

    Since I started taking these I have been hit with the most severe fatigue and lethargy.
    Now I see that r lipoic acid moves Mercury around the body. My doctor has recommended that I stop for a few days and restart at 1/4 the recommended dose.

    As for the other product cytoquel which contains NAC. Can somebody tell me is this implicated in moving Mercury around also or is it used for building glutathione?

    I cannot tolerate another week like I've just had and while I know I will need to be extremely careful with the lipoic acid I am unsure about the NAC.

    Any educated insights would be welcome.

    Thanks a million
    Paul
     
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Have you read the dosing instructions from Dr. Shoemaker about taking alpha or r lipoic acid every few hours so that it doesn't "drop" the mercury it picks up? Who can say that he is right but he does present this caution when taking it.
     
    Helen likes this.
  3. paul_k

    paul_k

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    Thanks for your reply. I've spent all day reading about the cutler protocol and then the Dr Christopher Shade protocol and yes I see that cutler recommends ALA be used every 3 hours. That's fine if your intention is to chelate Mercury but in my case I didn't realise that's what this nutrient does so I wasn't prepared at all.

    I know ultimately I will need to get the Mercury out in order to solve the gut issues but it seems a certain level of gut rebalancing is required first in order to prepare that exit route for Mercury excretion.

    A difficult chicken and egg situation...
     
  4. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Oops! I meant Cutler.
     
  5. paul_k

    paul_k

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    Don't suppose you know about NAC though Sushi?
    I can't seem to find solid info on whether its role is to build glutathione or whether it actually mobilises Mercury or crosses the BBB. If it does I need to be very careful with that too.
    Lots of conflicting info out there. Baffling too how the so called experts (cutler/shade) can be night and day in their opinions on the same thing...
     
  6. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

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    Paul K,

    In your reading of Cutler, you should also have picked up that he doesn't recommend anyone take the recommended chelating agents (DMPS, DMSA, ALA) unless they've had all amalgam fillings removed. And he further recommends that ALA not be taken until a person has been taking DMPS or DMSA for some months according to his half-life protocol timing, in order to reduce the body burden of mercury and minimize any chance of moving mercury into the brain. The timing on ALA is every 3 hours, possibly pushing it to 4 hours during sleeptime.

    The first mention of NAC in Cutler's Amalgam Illness is in regards to treatment of mercury poisoning.
    "If hydrocarbons, especially aromatic ones, are a problem, the patient may have slow phase 2 glutathione conjugation. This can best be corrected with NAC. Reasonable doses to clear such problems are 1-4 grams per day. Some people also require additional glutamine and glycine to use NAC on for prolonged period. Take 4 parts NAC to 2 parts glutamine to 1 part glycine for this purpose. Patients who have impaired metabolic conversion of cysteine to taurine and sulfate may respond negatively to NAC. NAC is also much more effective in elevating liver glutathione than either cysteine or glutathione." p. 102 Amalgam Illness

    "Those who have low glutathione or glutathione conjugation on the liver detox test are likely to benefit from NAC 600-4,000 mg/day." p. 111

    It appears that you should be okay taking NAC. I strongly suspect it is the ALA that has caused your reaction. If you still have amalgams, and if you're not taking it every 3 hours, according to the half-life, and if you haven't done any other chelating first, I think you may still have problems even if dropping to a 1/4 of the dose. The uncertain benefit for the purposes your doctor specified seem to be greatly outweighed, IMO, by the known abilities of ALA to mobilize and merely move mercury around if not used correctly.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    In some people, at least those with adult onset CblC, NAC and/or glutathione and by dose perhaps lots of people, it causes catastrophic B12 deficiency and is popularly called NAC detox or glutathione detox. These cause instant methyltrap (2 hours) and can cause demyelination of nerves in about two weeks or so dependent upon probably other unknown factors. However, in an N=10 trial about 7 years ago that I participated in caused neurological damage in 10 of 10 people in 6 weeks and we canceled the rest of the trial. I had the worst damage at the beginning and I had the most increased damage and the least re-healing, but that may be what pushed the copper deficiency over the edge.
     
  8. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I missed this post--if you want to get someone's attention, tag them, like this: @paul_k . I don't know much about NAC but seem to do well with it myself. I take 600 mg per day without any problem, but each of us react and respond differently to supplements and medications.
     
  9. paul_k

    paul_k

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    Thanks for this Lynn.
    I had my amalgams removed (all 8 of them) about 5 years ago and the only detox I did was about 6 months of chlorella and vitamin c. At the time I actually felt such an improvement from these actions compared to how I had felt pre removal that I didn't decide to go into any deeper chelation. I have taken chlorella periodically on and off ever since and I find it useful.
    The R-ALA would certainty appear to be a problem for me. The initial dose was 70mg and the fact that it was the R form and was liposomal in delivery would likely equate to a much larger dose than the regular form taken orally via a capsule.
    I will cautiously try 1/8 of the dose after a break and see how I do.
    DMSA feels like a very big step and one I'm not comfortable taking just now.
    I would need to educate myself a lot more and get my doctor to buy in.
    Based on how I've felt the past few days I'm not sure my body could handle it right now.
    Thanks again
     
  10. paul_k

    paul_k

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    Thanks for this Freddd.
    I have been supplementing liposomal glutathione on and off for a few months and it doesn't appear to be causing me any difficulties that I can detect so far.
    It seems extreme caution is needed with all supplements
     
  11. paul_k

    paul_k

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    Thanks for sharing Sushi
     
  12. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

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    Paul_K,
    Glad you got rid of your amalgams years ago. Reading your comment, I wasn't positive if that was the case, but wanted to caution in case it wasn't. You probably also know that Cutler doesn't like chlorella because it doesn't have two thiol molecules to grab firmly on to the mercury and escort it out of the body.

    I've read Dr. Chris Shade's website and watched several videos of his presentations at conferences. From what I know now, I'd be inclined to seriously look into his protocol for detoxing, rather than Cutler's, if I needed to detox mercury more. Shade doesn't think DMSA is all that great, and it sounds like he has better tools. I especially like the idea of being able to use his test to find out one's mercury level without needing to use a chelator. That being said, I think Cutler and his cautions are still worth paying attention to. I wish I knew what Cutler thinks of Shade's protocol.

    There's another thread going on called Glutathione: Is More Better? LivingwithFibro referenced this article there: http://180degreehealth.com/glutathione/. I think the article and especially the comments are well worth reading. In the comments, the biochemist author Dr. Brind explains why some people (such as Freddd) have trouble with supplemental glutathione, and also with methylation agents. He says oftentimes glycine is more beneficial than glutathione. We often don't know the damage we are doing when we supplement.
     
  13. paul_k

    paul_k

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  14. paul_k

    paul_k

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    Sorry for delayed response Lynn. It's been a rough few days. A sauna sweating session followed by a coffee enema helped me out of the quicksand today. Hell, maybe they're bad for me too but desperate times call for desperate measures and we all gotta get through the day somehow eh.
    I think I have probably been doing myself no favours by taking lots of chlorella the past few days on the simplified understanding that it is only binding and not mobilising/stirring up so will be giving that a break for a while now too at least until things settle down.

    Very interesting article and discussion about glutathione. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I for one probably don't get enough dietary glycine due to histamine intolerance where I need to avoid slow cooking.

    I like Chris shade's thinking too although his products are very expensive. Interesting that he says chlorella is the "next best" intestinal binding agent after his own product IMD which happens to cost around $150 for 6 grams!
    I also think his insights about "pre tox" and preparing the lymphatic system for detox with herbal/homeopathic remedies are very responsible and this makes a lot of sense.
    Makes me think I might have a chat with my acupuncturist/herbalist to see if they can add anything.

    Paul
     
  15. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    @paul_k

    In my experience binding with chlorella leads to a controlled release of toxins. It can be a bit rough for a few days but then the body finds its stride.

    DMSA, as I understand it, is very safe.

    Chlorella is good to start with; then I'd go with oral DMSA; and then the ALA last.

    I sometimes wake up a couple hours after going to sleep with a horrible feeling throughout my nervous system. I get this after eating certain kinds of fish and also sometimes when I'm killing borrelia. ALA is the only way I can get back to sleep again and it takes about 25 minutes for it to work. I haven't used ALA every 3.5 hours in years. And even then I'm not sure it made any difference. Horowitz recommends taking ALA or other chelators at nighttime with some chlorella in the gut, and says none of his patients have ever had any problems from doing this.

    NAC can also mobilize mercury. Dr Cheney stated in an old video that two of his patients ended up suicidal from taking fairly large doses of NAC, and he speculates it was due to mercury mobilization. And I believe Andy Cutler recommends against NAC.
     

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