Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Questions about Vitamin K, and calcium/magnesium deficiency.

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by DFams, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. DFams

    DFams

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    Ok first off, I just want to say that I always pretty much only ever hear about calcium, vitamin D, and vitamin K in regards to "bone density" and very rarely of their many other functions, especially in regards to what magnesium can do when taken in the right balance/ratios with them. It's always about the calcium and the "bone density" and "directing it all to the bones", rather than any other functions.

    For instance, I'm primarily trying to raise my magnesium levels (blood calcium is ok, blood magnesium is EXTREMELY LOW), and as such I'm taking large doses of magnesium, mostly for glutathione production, but also for insomnia, anxiety, cramps, even digestion and headaches - all of which are alleviated by both magnesium and glutathione anyway.

    However, I'm certainly not taking this for "bone density". BUT, I have to take calcium, vitamin D, and vitamin K in order to make the magnesium do it's job (very very clearly the case, as all the symptoms comes rushing back if I take JUST magnesium). Which makes sense, because they both work together in the body, and one clearly doesn't work without the other... yet for whatever reason EVERY article I read states that calcium cannot work/absorb without magnesium, but not a single one of them mention that the opposite is true for magnesium also requiring calcium to do ANY of IT'S many jobs. Not sure why this, but I digress.

    Currently I have to take a much much larger amount of magnesium than calcium (2:1 and 1:1 ratios are out the window by a long shot), because of a severe ammonia/nitrogen imbalance where if I take normal levels of calcium (or rather just too much calcium for me), it makes me much worse overall and actually depletes my, already abysmally low, magnesium faster.

    So I take large doses of magnesium, and just enough calcium to "make the magnesium work", I also take reasonable amounts of vitamin D (also can't go too overboard on this) and vitamin K, but I'm wondering if maybe I should up my vitamin K dosage? I have before in the past, but not since realizing that I needed far more magnesium than calcium... and so I'm worried that too much vitamin K will throw my calcium levels up too high, but how can that be if it's a "delivers the calcium to the bones, system", right?

    And about the whole bone delivery system thing... how does that affect blood calcium levels? What if I don't want the calcium delivered to the bones to begin with, but rather to use the calcium to do it's many other jobs? lol. Feel like I'm going around in circles now.

    I guess my primary question is... can a very severe vitamin K deficiency lead to a magnesium deficiency, by extension of calcium deficiency? DO severe enough vitamin K deficiencies even lead to calcium deficiencies to begin with, or just a "calcification of arteries and tissues" - ie "calcium not being lead where it needs to go"? I'm not sure I even have a severe, or non-severe, deficiency of vitamin K (I definitely do for magnesium though), but I'm wondering if more of it would help bring my magnesium levels, without increasing my calcium levels too much?

    Sorry if this post sounds a little crazy, I'm just having a hard time understanding exactly what it is that vitamin k does especially, but also all of calcium and D and mag and their relations, since practically all you ever hear about them is BONES.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  2. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    In my experience only high enough vitamin D3 normalized serum calcium levels. With the drawback that these higher D3 serum levels exacerbated a borderline magnesium deficiency to very severe. Which also caused imbalances with potassium, and especially sodium. However, at least calcium levels are fine now :D

    Don't think the danger in vitamin K deficiency is a Mg or Ca deficiency, but as you say, that it leads to soft-tissue calcifications, and not better bones.

    Vitamin K2 along with preformed vitamin A and Magnesium are all needed for higher vitamin D3 serum levels. See for example this article about part of that interrelation: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2009/04/
     
    Chocolove likes this.
  3. DFams

    DFams

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    OMGOSH, you just described perfectly exactly what I'm dealing with... I have a very SEVERE magnesium deficiency, which is also causing a massive sodium and potassium deficiency, and throwing both ratios completely out of balance... as such taking too much calcium or D3 makes my magnesium levels much much worse, and by extension my sodium : potassium ratios and levels...

    How is someone ever supposed to correct this?? It's like every single thing I do just makes it worse... I'm even using external magnesium oil, which worked great at first, but overall I just keep getting more and more mag deficient! Which is why I think I must need something else... like additional vitamin K, or A, or SOMETHING.

    And as you said, it seems very necessary to normalize D3 and calcium levels... but at the same time I absolutely cannot without attempting to raise magnesium first... but by doing so I just seem to be getting worse in other ways. But increasing my calcium or D3 at all makes me far far worse anyway, way more than raising just my magnesium levels by themselves, or raising it with only small amounts of cal/D. If you know what I mean...

    It's driving me absolutely insane, and my health is so far beyond dangerously bad it's not even funny...

    As far as the vitamin K goes, my meaning was that I honestly couldn't care less about "better bones" lol, or D3 much for that matter. My bones are the ONLY thing that are perfectly fine. What I'm interested in the most is raising my blood magnesium levels outside of the "severe deficiency" zone, and by extension then raising my sodium and potassium levels, thus alleviating my many many health problems.

    I also need to keep those two (sodium/potassium) within the right range, since I very very much need to have 'slightly' more sodium than potassium due to very bad adrenal fatigue.

    Sorry if I had a hard time making that clear lol. The point of my question(s) was that I feel like there must be other reasons to take vitamin K than just bone density right? If it affects calcium in some way, does it not affect magnesium at all either directly or indirectly? Can I not raise my magnesium levels at all by taking vitamin K, either more or at all?

    The bottom line is I desperately need to raise my mag at all costs, so I can raise my Na:K - and too much calcium or vit D makes that worse... and I'm just oblivious to what exactly it is that vitamin K really does. I'll check out that link though, for sure. But in the end I just feel like there must be something I'm doing miserably wrong...
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  4. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Well, especially in my case with a 80% blockage at my abdominal aorta soft tissue calcification isn't just a theoretical concern anymore. Got a 60% walking-disability from that, and reversed this since (beside many other things, also with vitamin K2).

    K normalized with about 2 g of elemental K supplemented per day. That was easy. Na I soon get new labs, am on about 4 g elemental Na per day at the moment. And Mg remains my real desperation at the moment too. Take about of 2 g of elemental Mg per day, right at the edge where at least 1 out of 3 daily bowel-movements turn liquid, just to avoid very painful muscle-cramps. Whole blood levels haven't improved with that yet. Mg-sulfate infusions would be my last resort. Read also about nebulizing Mg, may try that first.
     
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  5. DFams

    DFams

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    Well see that's the whole problem that I have... being that my adrenals are so badly damaged and I get terribly low blood sugar and hormones (even glandulars don't help and my docs won't prescribe cortisol), sodium and potassium are very very difficult for me.

    I can't just take a bunch of potassium or else I'll damage my adrenals even more and lose even more cortisol. I have to slowly raise sodium and potassium together, while keeping them within a fine ratio... sodium being higher than potassium, and the sodium needing to be of a plant or natural source (sea salt). If I screw this up I lose like 3 days worth of reasonable health, which can make me very much worse at this point. It's something I've dealt with since I was a teenager, but it's MUCH worse now.

    Likewise, I can't even raise either or get either to be within a decent ratio unless I can get my magnesium levels up.... and therein lies the whole problem. Cus without reasonable cortisol and glutathione levels to begin with, I can't even process magnesium well, no matter what the source is.

    On top of which I have this terrible nitrogen imbalance that can't be managed without glutathione, hormones, and magnesium all working together... and I just keep getting sicker and sicker, making it harder and harder to manage.

    So you see, it's a terrible vicious cycle. Like I'm walking a very very small tight-rope, that's getting smaller on a daily basis now. I honestly have no idea what to do anymore.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  6. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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  7. Sallyagerharris

    Sallyagerharris

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    Also do use and concentrate your eating regime with whole foods with those elements in them. It is so so much better for the body to get vitamins and minerals needed directly from food.
     
  8. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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    Fantastic! Wish more people knew about this...it's a very common and deadly problem.

    :thumbsup::trophy::heart:
     

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