Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Questions about "Startup reaction"

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Charles555nc, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    How long is the "Startup reaction"
    What symptoms can I expect from the startup reaction?
    Is it related to the Herxheimer reaction?
    Is it only methyl folate that causes a start up reaction?

    Thanks for any information.

    -Charles
     
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  2. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    O and can someone tell me what brand Folinic acid that Rich/Fredd uses?
     
  3. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    Rich/Fredd?
     
  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Charles.

    Freddd does not recommend using folinic acid, because it causes problems for him when he takes it. I think that's because he has inherited a polymorphism in the MTHFS gene (not to be confused with MTHFR), but this is not proven.

    Most PWMEs appear to benefit from folinic acid, and it is used quite a lot in treating autism, also.

    I have suggested the brand supplied by Amy Yasko at http://www.holisticheal.com/folinic-acid.html
    I don't know what brand it is, but I don't think it matters which brand one uses. I have suggested a capsule form, so that it might be easier to divide, but at least one person said they prefer the tablets as being easier to divide. I think either is O.K.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  5. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Freddd recommends Metafolin L-methylfolate, which can be found OTC sold by Solgar or Metagenics. Rich's protocol also uses L-methylfolate in the form of drops called Methymate B sold by holisticheal.com. That L-methylfolate is made by Gnosis. Rich's protocol also makes use of folinic acid, which can be purchased various places. Source Naturals makes a folinic acid product. All of Rich's Simplified Methylation Protocol supplements can be purchased at holisticheal.com. Supplements for Freddd's protocol can be purchased at various places like iherb.com. Gnosis L-methylfolate and Metafolin are the only true L-methylfolate products available. There are threads in this forum that list all of the supplements for both protocols.



    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...fied-Methylation-Protocol-Revised-as-of-Today

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics
     
  6. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    Why did no one actually answer my questions? I think maybe 1 out of 5 were answered.

    How long is the "Startup reaction"
    What symptoms can I expect from the startup reaction?
    Is it related to the Herxheimer reaction?
    Is it only methyl folate that causes a start up reaction?

    (5th was question about what brand)
     
  7. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Columbus, Ohio
    Many of these things vary between individuals, including length of startup responses and reactions. Some of this is also dose dependant. Some are able to tolerate higher dosages while others have strong responses to miniscule amounts. I don't know how or if there is relation to the Herxheimer reaction. And for me, b-12 startup response was strong. There are numerous methylation, b12,folate related threads on this forum where people are relating their ongoing experiences with these protocols. One thing that does seem to happen, at least in my experience and others, is that on day 4 there seems to be shift, which is currently being attributed to a drop in potassium due to new cell formation. This is strong and a little scary. I experience this with mb12.
     
  8. JAH

    JAH Senior Member

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    Hi Charles,

    I'll answer your question, though I'm not sure you'll like it- my start up reaction (to Rich's SMP) was nothing, nada, zip. Like I was taking a placebo. I switched to methly b12 after 3 months, with no reaction. (rich's study showed that people had results after 3 months) I am still doing the SMP, (though I alternate between methyl b12 and hydroxo b12) just to finish off the supplements I bought. Check our Rich's study with Dr. Nathan to see how people reacted.



    2 diaries by pwc's trying methylation on this page.

    good luck,

    JAH
     
  9. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    Thank you so much for answering those questions. I had a quite negative response to methyl folate. My testosterone is already a little low but it feels like it got worse after taking methyl folate for a couple days in row (very little interest in sex, erections etc). Got me a little bummed out.

    -Charles
     
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, JAH.

    I'm sorry to hear that you have experienced no response from the methylation treatment.

    Here are some possible reasons for non-response on the methylation protocol:

    1. The person does not have a partial methylation cycle block. I think this one is unlikely if a person has the symptoms of ME/CFS, since nearly all who have these symptoms do have the partial block, based on testing of many people at this point. Nevertheless, I think this is a possibility. The methylation pathways panel from Health Diagnostics or the European Lab. of Nutrients will determine whether the partial block is present.

    2. The person is lacking enough of the supporting vitamins and minerals for the enzymes in the methylation cycle and related pathways. Having HPU (hemopyrrollactamuria) is one possible cause of this. It depletes zinc, B6, biotin, and manganese. Testing is also available from the above labs for vitamins and minerals as well as for HPU.

    3. The person has a high body burden of one or more of the toxic heavy elements that bind to sulfhydryl groups: mercury, lead, arsenic or cadmium. These elements can block enzymes in this part of the metabolism. Testing is available for these as well.

    4. The person suffers from something that is holding down their glutathione. This might be mold illness or other biotoxin illnesses, Lyme disease and its coinfections, or viral infections. I think this one is more likely to hinder progress on the treatment, rather than to cause no response at all.

    I hope this is helpful.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  11. baccarat

    baccarat Senior Member

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    I got that the beginning and for a few months. I'm not sure it's an effect on testosterone per se, in my case it was probably a spike in inflammation which affects energy levels, hormones etc. I have Lyme and get that when inflammation is on the up. Fortunately I have recently found a very effective remedy for that and am going to post about it. I agree with Rich that Lyme seems to hold back progress in my case but still am better off being on the SMp than not doing nothing at all.
     
  12. JAH

    JAH Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich for your thoughtful reply. A couple of points,

    - I have had the health diagnostics test and it was positive for a partial methylation block. Additionally frustrating for me that the protocol has not worked.

    -don't think I have heavy metals, sure I have been tested for that. Don't know about HPU, I'll ask my doctor.

    -I have a lot of infections (am being treated by dr. montoya with valtrex), possibly including lyme disease. (one positive test, subsequent negative, so I don't know). I started the SMP after I had been on the valtrex for 8 months, hoping that valtrex would have tamped down the viruses.

    -my doctor has brought up the possibility of methyl b12 injections, instead of sublingual. Not sure if you think that would have an effect.

    I've been sick for so long, that I will stick with the protocol a while longer. I have been on valtrex for over a year and my doctor told me it could take 2 years to work! Yikes.

    thanks again for your help to me and so many others on the forum,

    JAH
     
  13. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, JAH.

    Sounds as though you have investigated at least some of the "usual suspects." Methyl B12 injections could certainly be tried. It may be possible that not enough is getting in sublingually. If the mouth is dry, that can limit sublingual absorption.

    I would really like to see a methylation-type treatment work for you.

    You're very welcome for anything I've been able to do that has been helpful.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  14. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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