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Question re brain-fog

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by stridor, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    I wish you were my Dr. You've figured out more about me on-line, sight unseen than my Dr with whom I had weekly appts right through 2011-2012. I am on hydrocortisone 25 mg. My adrenals are unlikely to recover as both mercury toxicity (to the degree that I had it) and B2 deficiency can damage them. I have tried 3 times to wean from it but without success. Chelation is winding down now and when it is done, I will try one last time and then resign myself to lifetime replacement. (The problem of a failed attempt to wean is a "crash" in which I feel like I am dying. It takes a couple of months to return to baseline.)
    So yes, you are very intuitive and somehow picked up on my problems.
     
  2. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    Thanks. I had a level done recently and will check with my Dr. Personally, I have never paid much attention to the T4...I am interested in the T3 mostly.
     
  3. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I agree that the thyroid and adrenals are closely tied (Shames Ladder). When I take supps that push/support the thyroid I feel better for a short time then my adrenals usually tank. I think taking HC with thyroid supps might be the way to go for me.
     
  4. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I used to assume this (coffee raised cortisol) because it certainly seem to have that effect in the AM, but when I went to find evidence I could not. I did find evidence that coffee might raise adrenaline and adenosine. If you can point me to a study?
     
  5. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    This was a really good post, thank you! Thank you for also reminding me of what I have quoted above. I actually knew this and wrote an entry in my blog over 3 years ago but have somehow forgotten: http://cfsjourney.com//index.php/2010/05/26/tyrosine-a-big-help-for-brain-fog

    I posted this yesterday or the day before in the Symptoms/Cognition forum about what gives me brain fog:

    1. I workout in the gym (I believe this is due to increased oxygen intake)
    2. I eat yogurt (there are some other food triggers I haven't completely isolated yet)
    3. I'm out in the sun for a prolonged time (heat?)
    4. If I am in front of my far-infrared heater. The longer the worse the fog.
    5. If I am dressed warmer (undershirt/longsleeve/jacket)

    I even mention #3 in my blog article from 3 years ago.

    Anyway... I went to the gym yesterday and have been having a horrible time just getting up in the AM on the day after. I took my minerals today which help but still wanted to get back in bed. I willed myself up and had a little coffee and shower. Then I read your post this morning. I was feeling a little better after the shower and coffee but still very wiped out. I went and took about 1/3 cap of NA-Tyrosine mentioned in my blog. So I got about 100-150 mg...

    I paid close attention to my body and waited... Sure enough slight improvement, then huge improvement within 20 minutes. I feel like I'm ready for another workout now!

    I believe SMP has altered my gut somewhat. I know, for example, that when I take charcoal I become, almost immediately, emotionally flat. When I take some B3 and NA-Tyrosine that seem to counter the effects pretty well (again in my blog: http://cfsjourney.com//index.php/20...ed-charcoal-to-dramatically-reduce-toxic-load)

    I know Nicotinic Acid (b3) and T4 (from tyrosine) are manufactured in the gut. Altering the gut bacteria can dramatically reduce the production of these 2.[/quote]

    Anyone suspecting gut issues should be mindful of these 2 supplements. Niacinamide also seems to work just as good as Niacin for this purpose in my experience.
     
  6. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Anyone suspecting gut issues should be mindful of these 2 supplements. Niacinamide also seems to work just as good as Niacin for this purpose in my experience.[/quote]

    Why r u taking charcoal? I can't remember all the threads I had this talk but my genetic report also said I needed charcoal to get rid of ammonia. So I got 2 serum ammonia tests - one I took after eating 40g protein, which was ok, so then I took one after eating 80g of protein, and it was ok too. I do not believe you need charcoal unless you eat an abnormally HIGH (Atkins-like or Palo-like (which is Atkins-like)) protein diet. You should test before you take cancer-causing supplements like charcoal.
     
  7. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    Why r u taking charcoal? I can't remember all the threads I had this talk but my genetic report also said I needed charcoal to get rid of ammonia. So I got 2 serum ammonia tests - one I took after eating 40g protein, which was ok, so then I took one after eating 80g of protein, and it was ok too. I do not believe you need charcoal unless you eat an abnormally HIGH (Atkins-like or Palo-like (which is Atkins-like)) protein diet. You should test before you take cancer-causing supplements like charcoal.[/quote]

    I had the same thing with my genetics - that ammonia was high and contributing to brain-fog. So I take cal-mag butyrate. It is supposed to help with gut inflammation as well. I think that it helps a bit with the fog but it wasn't a big gun for me. Charcoal sounds like a good way to interfere with absorption of minerals....pretty non-discriminatory. Some of us with absorption problems would be well advised to avoid it as much as possible.
    (BTW can anyone tell me how to respond to a question or trim a quote and get it to end up in the highlighted box like everyone seems to have figured out?)
     
  8. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    When you hit reply on a particular post the entire post is quoted in quote/quote bracketed blocks. Remove what you don't want...if you want anyone to be notified of the post put an @ sign before their name somewhere in your post.
     
  9. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Charcoal and other binders are good for absorbing gut toxins and making them unavailable for enterohepatic recirculation. It grabs them (maybe along probably with some good stuff) and makes sure they get out of the system. Why do you think it causes cancer? Are you referring to carcinogens when overcooking meat and such?

    Article on activated charcoal
     
  10. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Well that and also coffee is a risk factor for pancreatic cancer, whether it is decaf or regular, and the roasting has been implicated. Isn't charcoal roasted wood or roasted something? Ok, I have no clue about charcoal since idk what it really is. But even if all it does is bind with stuff I'll bet it is not selective about what it binds to. Few people here seem willing to try this (citing low blood pressure) but I take Olive Leaf extract which kills gut pathogens and I have no issue with them. Unfortunately I have recurring issues with low HCL (which would be the best thing to kill gut toxins) but my allergies keep robbing the zinc needed to make HCL and I have a hard time keeping up so I take OLE. idk if it lowers normal bp, but since mine is high, OLE is of no concern for me. I would be inclined to try it even with low bp but I'm pretty brave / crazy.
     
  11. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    I started a new thread on this but will also add it here as I need some input.
    I have found that AdB12 increases my ability to focus my attention but only when I have it in my mouth. Do I just keep a chip in my mouth all the time. Is this a transient or a loading phase and will my brain-fog eventually relent as well? My gut-feeling on this is to just keep pounding it back and wait for my body to say "whoa".
    I took about 15 mg yesterday....maybe more...of adB12, on top of my mB12 1 mg injectable. I know that this is below what Fredd has taken and am assuming that it is safe? Has anyone ever become cobalt toxic from too much B12?
     
  12. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    I think the NAC and phosphitadyl choline help brain signaling and reduce fog. I'm not sure what exactly helps since I'm taking sam-E, alpha GPC, acetyl carnitine/ALA also. I also have a sleep apnea machine that I use every night
     
  13. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    My hair analysis showed too high cobalt. Also, by testing homocysteine (a $60 test, so it can be repeated), I showed that taking extra B12 other than what is in my Thorne Basic B 2x/day, does not improve my homocysteine reading, so why cause toxicity? I read before the dangers of cobalt toxicity but don't remember what they are. I think merylg (oh her icon is a Kangaroo) knows as she ran into this also either with herself or her husband.
     
  14. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    triffid113
    ....ok, this changes the rules of the game...maybe.
    Thanks, for the reply. I know that some with joint replacements can get cobalt toxicity and there are sites that say too much B12 can lead to this. But then you have guys like fredd who have taken 30 mg by injection daily. I "only" take 1 mg mB12 by injection daily and 8-15 mg sublingual adB12 and of course only a bit of this gets absorbed.

    My homocysteine levels were somewhat high even though I was taking 1 mg B12 and 1400 mcg folate daily. This should have told my Dr that something was wrong but he did not know how to interpret this result and so I went another 18 months and was dragged through hell.

    I am wrapping up mercury chelation and I would just as soon not have to contend with cobalt. I will look at the posts you mentioned. And thanks again for posting.
     
  15. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I don't really know that much about the adrenal gland, despite that I have problems with it. I have fixed my problems each time by the barest inklings of what is involved and no true depth of knowledge. For instance, I know all the known cofactors that go into producing thyroid hormone but have no such knowledge of the adrenal gland. I certainly know nothing about heavy metal poisoning. However, it was said that neuropathy could not be reversed and we have seen here that it can. It was said that brain cells could not be regenerated and science has recently learned that they can. It was said that mitochondria could not be regenerated and the discovery of PQQ proved that they can. So...keep up hope.

    Here are the 2 things I would try: pantethene. This is proven to help the adrenal gland. There was a lab posting the typical blood chemistries it received from people taking one of those B50 or B100 preparations and it showed all having low B5 (pantothetic acid...whose active form is pantethene) so there is evidence that perhaps B5 is undersupplied or needed in a greater amount than many consume. Also I would take rhodiola in a goodly dose because it has been proven to raise glycogen levels and the adrenal gland is responsible to tell the liver to break down glycogen...a process that somehow falters when one has adrenal problems.

    Other than that, have you tried taking DHEA and pregnenolone? These are produced by the adrenal gland and I find I cannot function w/o DHEA at least. If I was only allowed 1 pill this would be my choice. Taking hydrocortisone is only a fragment of what your adrenal gland is supposed to make...whereas if you supply the hormones further up the chain, you can theoretically make all the hormones from that (I can't say though about what all capability heavy metal has damaged).

    P.S. All people at age 50+ are low(er) in DHEA, but for me I cannot function w/o a high level of DHEA, I am thinking because my allergies require massive cortisol production and this beats up my adrenal gland. So I think I will always need DHEA to function, whereas my sisters seem just fine w/o any augmented DHEA or hormone and they are both also over 50.
     
  16. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Ok, here is how *I* calibrated my methylation strategy. I understand others do it by 'feels good' but that does not work for me since hormones and allergies and just life have such a big effect on how I feel that I am not the same person day to day in order to effectively make this comparison. I needed an objective measure and I chose homocysteine because that test is affordable (as opposed to these $300 more inclusive tests). Just try to get your homocysteine to 6.3 which is ideal. Every 3 points above that comes with a 35% greater risk of stroke. Now the sensible way to do this is to supply inputs to all the branches of the methylation cycle. Mostly neglected by people here is TMG. I personally would NEVER supplement SAMe because if you need it, it is a sign you are not recycling it correctly, and that is a sign that taking SAMe can raise homocysteine. Yasko and others have found a reason to take it for a brief period at startup "to prime the pump" and I have no opinion on that except that it would be briefly unharmful. (It is true that SAMe level is used as a feedback mechanism in the methylation cycle, so there is basis for priming, I personally never needed it). To prevent homocysteine buildup, first you need to get a goodly dose of TMG (to recycle) and P5P (to drain). The people who get the most TMG by diet get 2g/day. You can determine how much you get in your daily diet here: http://nutritiondata.self.com/tools/nutrient-search
    So maybe target supplementing 1-2g (I cannot say if you need to work up to it, I didn't). I am COMT+/+ yet oblivious to overmethylation...perhaps because my dopamine is constantly being degraded to epinephrine for my allergies (anyway my dopamine is always low despite COMT +/+). So, um, 'startup' strategies are something you'd have to ask others about or work out yourself. Then you will make and clear homocysteine but you cannot just rely on TMG to do so as this strategy will cause brain edema. So you need to add some mB12 and mfolate and/or folinic. What I did is try a full protocol to establish I could get homocysteine down to 6.3 and then I dropped things off to see if I could keep it there. So, what you want to find out is if the amount of B's in your active B supplement if taken 2x/day is sufficient (with TMG) or if you need to add more quantity. Do you need an extra 50mg p5p? (I do). Do you need an extra mB12 (I don't). Extra mfolate (I do). Can you manage with 1g TMG or do you need 2 or is your diet sooo good that you need none? If taking all the active B's 2x/day plus some TMG does not get your homocysteine down to 6.3 then instead of dropping things you need to look at adding them...cofactors in Freddd's extended list like zinc, magnesium, copper, molybdenum. I think extremely common are: magnesium deficiencies and Vitamin D deficiency (which affects methylation too). Also free radicals negatively affect methylation so antioxidants are important. Once you get methylation to 6.3, you can try to remove things...it STILL may be possible you don't need much more active B than is in an active B complex, once you get all the support nutrients in place.
     
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  17. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    triffid113
    This stupid ipad just lost the message I was sending.
    Anyway, I was telling you that mercury damages adrenals of rats. The animals post normal cortisol levels at rest but they "tank" when the animals are stressed. Therefore, accepted testing of a.m./p.m. cortisol will not detect this problem. The adrenals showed bleeding and scar tissue. Coincidently, this is the same finding with B2 deficiencies. Most of this work occurred 50 - 60 years ago when they were trying to figure out what starvation was doing to kids in Africa.

    So, while I read about the B2/adrenal connection here, I kinda doubt that my B2 levels were low enough to cause damage on its own...however, if mercury was beating them into the ground anyway, B2 problems may have added to the problem. I take 25 mg/day of cortef and 3 attempts to wean have failed.

    The last time I only got to 22.5 mg and then had a stressful event. My Dr just shakes his head. He thinks that I am a masochist I think, and has told me repeatedly that my adrenals can contribute to my daily totals of cortisol by helping in times of stress but they can not carry the load ....ever.

    I'm going to try one last time but I have to steel myself as it makes me feel like I am dying when they crash and it takes weeks to recover the ground that I lose.

    I'll look into your recommendations. I had about 50 IV treatments that were loaded with B vitamins and Vit C and stuff to treat CFS. Cost a fortune and did absolutely nothing. I have taken B5 in varying amounts orally and I inject a bit as well each morning. I will look up rhodiola of which I know nothing.

    I had a DHEA level done and get the result on Wed. I will ask to have the homocysteine level checked as well. I hope that it isn't dropping too low. I have 4 CBS +-. I have had lots of problems with sulphur and sulphite conversion over the past couple of years. The homocysteine was a bit high in Feb 2011. High enough the the particular Dr recommended folate and B12 supplements only to notice that I was taking folate 1400 mcg and B12 1000 mcg daily x 4 years.

    If he had known more about methylation he could have saved me a lot of suffering. I was MTHFR and needed mfolate and mB12.

    I have taken TMG various times and have not responded to it. With my history of psychiatric problems and my NeuroScience testing showing dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin to be low, I assumed that I needed to avoid adding fuel to the short-cut in order to increase BH4 (?) I only have one BHMT +- the rest are good. According to the site you gave me, my intake is just "fair". I do eat quinoa and while I enjoy spinach, I do not eat enough of it. There are changes that I can make to increase intake...those are all healthy foods for other reasons as well.

    SAMe was a freaking disaster. My adrenal Dr (the one that I like) thought that I had a problem with methylation and had me try it. It made all my symptoms much worse. The worst part was that I lost all objectivity and insight and just kept sinking further into a deep soul-sucking depression. Just kept taking it.

    I am torn about folacin. On the one hand, I have read various places not to take it. Concentrate on mfolate. Since I am C677T++, that makes some sense. But I am also TYMS++ and I think it is folacin that is needed to produce and repair DNA. Man, I should have gone to university instead of traveling as a young man :)

    I am good with the other supports. After my colon was taken out, I take much of my magnesium topically and should have been doing this all along. I can tell the difference.

    Listen triffid, you've given me a few avenues to pursue and I thank you for bringing homocysteine levels to my attention. I am still making my way through all the material here. I haven't found a "kindred spirit" yet and am beginning to think that I never will. While others may share some SNPs with me, it is unlikely that they would have had the mercury exposures that I had in my childhood. Kind of leaves me as a "one man show".
     
  18. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    does citicoline and magtein help fog/memory? wow I'm really sorry to hear that about your colon- I have IBD for 19 years now and take glutamine.
    the last few days have been less good with energy/memory, but I think I had some big improvement in focus with sam-E or something else, maybe the NAC. I think it's better to take sam-E with vitamin B to not raise homocysteine, but maybe a certain group benefit from it (then you may benefit from vit B+folate).
     
  19. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Unfortunately I do not know enough about adrenals to advise about rebuilding them other than to draw on ancient Chinese secrets (just kidding), I mean to draw on ancient nutrition knowledge from the 60's (Adele Davis era) that Vitamin E can potentially help heal scar tissue.

    I take tyrosine to help dopamine production and I avoid products with phenylalanine (as it takes 2 BH4 to make dopamine from it). You can buy BH4 from www.heartfixer.com. Unfortunately it is a very small dose and I never noticed any effect from it. (I keep it on hand to help my kidneys which need BH4 for the ornithine cycle...I am MTHFR 1298AC +/-, but my father was +/+ and before he died Metametrix measured his biopterin level at zero). You can do a web search for things that raise BH4, I published here somewhere a list. The only things I recall that were on it are ESTROGEN, Vitamin C, Mfolate, and saunas.
     
  20. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    physicsstudent13
    I used to take citicoline and was actually thinking of ordering some today...funny that you would post this. I thought at the time that it helped with memory. But that was another time and my brain was different. I take magnesium threonate which may be similar magtein. Just a fancy way of trying to get Mg into the brain. Not sure if I will continue with this one or not as it does not make a lot of difference. Though perhaps it was a subtle improvement that I will detect should I ever stop.

    Glad that you are narrowing down what helps. mB12 was definitely the biggest contributor to my improvement. I am experimenting with carnitine and after a while ubiquinol. This always seems to end in a mess by I have adb12 on board now and so I have to see if I can tolerate them or not.
     

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