1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Nitric oxide and its possible implication in ME/CFS (Part 1 of 2)
Andrew Gladman explores the current and historic hypotheses relating to nitric oxide problems in ME/CFS. Part 1 of a 2-part series puts nitric oxide under the microscope and explores what it is, what it does and why it is so frequently discussed in the world of ME/CFS. Part 1 focuses...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Question for Freddd re glutathione...

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dannybex, Apr 12, 2011.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes:
    514
    Seattle
    Hi Freddd,

    I'm sure you've answered this somewhere in this b12 jungle, but I've always wondered why you or how you connected glutathione with wiping out your b12/folate levels? It seems like some can tolerate it, in fact need it, while others can't...but you seem to have an especially strong reaction.

    And when you talk about glutathione, are you talking about specific supplemental forms of glutathione, or the glutathione molecule itself?

    The reason I ask, is isn't glutathione -- in some form of another -- essential for antioxidant protection and to battle oxidative stress? How could we survive without it?

    Thanks Freddd,

    d.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    885
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Dan

    The reason I ask, is isn't glutathione -- in some form of another -- essential for antioxidant protection and to battle oxidative stress? How could we survive without it?
    According to what Rich has said and what I have read our body's make glutathione when we start up methylation and have the other needed cofactors, another good reason to take the basics. Another researcher in a phone conversation said that there "is no safe way to take glutathione". So by that standard I, and none of the people involved can even be justified as needing it by reason of methylation block as all of us had successfully restarted methylation with mb12 and Metafolin, typically years before. Maybe that is a factor.

    And when you talk about glutathione, are you talking about specific supplemental forms of glutathione, or the glutathione molecule itself?

    So, I and 9 others including a vegetarian, all of us different, all of us willing to experiment always looking for more answers and improved results decided to try it becasue of all the whoha on the internet about it, in a variety of forms. I tried it both as a brand name patent combo and as just a pair of precursors. Different people took different precursors and a couple did infusions. Everybody had the same results. Those taking more had them faster. Those taking less took a little longer. The form didn't matter. As we went on some additional people discovered they were taking it in hidden form via two unrelated multi ingredient formulas that together had a precursor set and others mentioned that they had been taking it for some time. It became the single unifying factor for all these "discovered" folks were not making progress on the active b12/folate protocol.

    but I've always wondered why you or how you connected glutathione with wiping out your b12/folate levels

    I started feeling folate deficiency symptoms within 2 hours of my first glutathione dose. The amount of b12 visible in my urine went up massively. I had never taken a dose of mb12/adb12 that put that much b12 in my urine and this was doing it all the time. In the next few days the angular cheilitis started right up, a key folate deficiency symptom of mine. Then a couple of days later IBS started up with a vengeance, as with folate deficiency. And so it continued, inflammation, allergies, infected follicles, and so on. Over a 6 week period we all suffered a very rapidly increasing severity of a relatively small group of symptoms, 100% of us. Those of us already having the worst neurological damage had our neurological problems made worse. All the symptoms were the return of previous symptoms, no new ones. And they all fit into the description of an affliction popularly called "glutathione detox reaction" and similar variations. At some point, someone, not me, suggested that it had many of the symptoms of folate deficiency and so why don't I try more Metafolin. I did, 4800mcg more than the 800mcg before, the others did and again, 100% response. Within 2 hours the red color disappeared from my urine for almost a week, just like when I started Metafolin in the first place. And then, when I took my next mb12 injection that evening, another BINGO, mb12 startup all over again such as I hadn't had since about the 4th month on mb12. And again when I tried by next dose of adb12 another BINGO, adb12 startup which I had never experienced again after starting adb12 until then. This was 6 months AFTER I had stopped the glutathione. Things had never started up again despite 800mcg/day of Metafolin. I continued with some b12 deficiency symptoms despite injecting 7.5mg twice a day. I was also taking acb12 regularly and none of them seemed to be working. Talk about a setback. I had dropfoot again. That is a scary amount of damage.

    Everybody, without exception, had already had strong responses to mb12 and Metafolin and were much improved. If I hadn't aready had massive improvement nothing would have changed when I took glutathione precursors and so I wouldn't haver noticed anything. I would have had massive folate and b12 deficiency symptoms before and I would have still had them after trying glutathione. What's to notice in that case?

    Because of the glutathione experience and it's intense severity I was able to recognize the paradoxical folate deficiency when it happened the next half dozen times and via some experimentation figured out the differences in relative timing of folic acid and Metafolin that caused me to have it sometimes and not others.


    If this isn't adequate in explaining the recognition of the glutathione role please ask a more specific question.
  3. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes:
    514
    Seattle
    Hi again Freddd,

    I get it, and I suppose there are parts that I still don't quite get. Let me see if this makes sense:

    Once you have restored your methylation, then that alone brings up glutathione levels, so any additional supplementation creates an imbalance, and thus depletes folate and b12 (at least in your case and the cases you mentioned), but in all cases, they were supplemented forms of glutathione or the supplemental aminos that come together to make glutathione, and not from what we might get in our diets.

    ??? :)
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes:
    885
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Dan,

    Once you have restored your methylation, then that alone brings up glutathione levels, so any additional supplementation creates an imbalance

    I would have to say that's a big maybe. According to what I had read and Rich has said is that the glutathione happens quite naturally in the proper amounts with indirect supplements (you know, b12, folate and basics) as opposed to direct precursors such as the pair I used; L=glutamate and NAC. I also tried MaxGXL which contains those and a couple of more items. Others, as previously mentioned used other precursor sets or infusion of glutathione itself.

    so any additional supplementation creates an imbalance

    And this part is a big unknown. I bring it up only as a possibility. I have no idea if that is the case. If I didn't bring it up somebody was bound to. It certainly takes things beyond the bounds of the normal homeostasis mechanisms. It may also be one of those things that distinguishes one of the differences between the group on active mb12 and folate, the group that notices the effects. Of course it may also be totally irrelevant and the same thing happens to those not on the active protocol but they still have the deficiency symptoms so there is no difference for them to notice, no basis of comparison.

    and thus depletes folate and b12


    It does deplete the folate and both mb12 and adb12. But whether it follows from "so any additional supplementation creates an imbalance" is questionable as the cause. My opinion is that it would deplete it in anybody taking large enough doses that wasn't already deficient. Again it comes down to lack of basis of comparison. The people NOT on active b12 protocol and who developed "glutathione detox reaction" were also not deficient before that so they had a basis for comparison. Of course the case could be made that since they were not deficient their methylation was working just fine in the first place and so again the glutathione was surplus.

    So it comes down to glutathione can only cause noticeable deficiency symptoms in those who don't already have them, whether because they have removed those symptoms with the active supplements and hence recognize the return of symptoms with the glutathione as return of deficiency or were not previously deficient and hence don't recognize the symptoms as deficiency and call it "detox".

    Rich has proposed a biochemical pathway involving NADH I believe it was, that is involved in the glutathione processing pathway as well as converting folic acid and folinic acid to methylfolate. So maybe this is the key factor or maybe a contributing factor, or maybe not. Maybe glutathione does what it does completely unrelated to folic/folinic acid conversion capability because it combines with mb12/adb12 very rapidly deactivating both active forms of b12 and causes it to be flushed very visibly and rapidly from the body. Then with the lack of active b12 in the cells the folate is flushed from the cells causing the "methyl trap" whose characteristics can be abrupt onset of folate deficiency symptoms despite high serum level of folate.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page