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Question for Fredd and others: Ramping up B dosage question: Ratio of Folate to B12?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by chilove, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Pea
    Klaire Labs makes a multi - powder and pill form

    Douglas labs makes a B multi with no folic
    and Source Naturals makes a dibencozide with no folic
  2. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Klaire Labs Multi Vitamin Forte contains "reduced L-Glutathione." I'm guessing that all forms of glutathione are off the table for us.

    Do they have another one that's OK?
  3. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    It looks like y'all are avoiding folinci acid too (I am not as my genes REQUIRE it). I use
    Thorne Basic B and one of the Thorne multis (used to use V I think but had to switch to a similar one with iron...cant remember the number). These are ALL active B's - no folic acid, but includes FOLINIC acid, which IS active.
    I love Thorne products. There were things about the other ones y'all are using that I did not like. (I dont
    remember what. But Thorne's approach makes utter sense to me...I used it while y'all were still using B Right as that one NEVER made sense to me. Thorne was the first to use all active B's and I trust them).
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rydra,

    As you make abundently clear you don't have the same folate problems a lot of us have and maybe not the same problems at all. Quite a few people were having quite specfic reponses to folic and/or folinic acid that go away without them. So you don't share them. Be glad.
  5. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    I think there may be debate as to whether the methyl folate in the Thorne products is in fact metafolin, which I dont think it is.. and not sure it matters but a point to bring out. No where on the bottle does it state it is metafolin. Again.. that might not matter.

    As for the folinic... is this for the short pathway as per yasko and Rich?

    Any comments on supporting the short pathway from Freddd.. my guess is that if you are genetically unable to use methyl folate when folicin is present then the short pathway becomes a moot point?

    Robin

  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Robin,

    In some people, and I am one of them, folinic acid accumulates unused and eventually blocks the methylfolate form from being usable. Since enough of folinic acid is found in food to cause problems I have probems with vegetable food source folate as well. As has become evident, some number of others here also have that problem. In those in whom such a thing is present it may be a root cause for the methylation cycle to become blocked starting a whole cascade of things.

    As for the folinic... is this for the short pathway as per yasko and Rich?

    It is only the "short" pathway compared to folic acid which takes several steps to be converted to methylfolate. They were suggesting folinic as not as many people have trouble with it as with folic acid. However, looking at the relatively large quantity of people with paradoxical folate deficiency problems taking folinic as compared to Metafolin, either CFS/FMS acts as a concentrator of those of us with this problem or it is not anywhere near as rare as it is typically thought. However, as the recognition of paradoxical folate deficiency is in it's infancy all the answers are not in yet.

    Since I can have full functionality on methylfolate as long as I eat only modest quantities of folate containing veggies, it is a moot point.

    I think there may be debate as to whether the methyl folate in the Thorne products is in fact metafolin

    There is no debate. Metafolin is a specific patented stable form of l-methylfolate produced by Merck. Thorne can't claim Metafolin because it isn't. How stable the l-methlfolate they use, is the thing up for possible debate. I've never tried it and can't really say anything about that. Merck stresses the stable part of things and that was a big problem for years.
  7. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd,

    Do you have any idea how long it takes for us to flush out that accumulated folinic acid? Pretending for the sake of argument that no additional folic acid is taken in?
    I don't mean exactly - just - days? weeks? months? years?
  8. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Pea and Maddie,

    I should be specific on that Klaire Labs item

    It is specifically the Vitaspectrum, which looks like it has no glutathione in it. It does have Metafolin in it.

    I needed some rescue potassium while at the pediatrician's office, and they happened to have this, so I bought the powder form.

    I have used Douglas Labs, and the Source Naturals, and have been happy with both. I will consider other brands as I go.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    24 hours appears to be sufficient to allow enough folinic acid to leave the body and allow Metafolin to work. For folic acid that appears to be about 12 hours. Both of these are based on my own experience and reports of others. If they are not maintained with additional doses they fall very quickly, apparantly at their appropriate serum half life rates.

    See this for the latest.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...atest-Chapter-of-Pradoxical-Folate-Deficiency
  10. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Thanks, Rosebud! Stopped by a vitamin store and looked at just about every multi, and they all had folic acid. (well, the ones that didn't, had gluthione - no, I won't do that Fredd!).

    I told him to stop taking his Centrum for now until I can get a different multi. He eats pretty heartily with variety and is getting C, potassium, magnesium, so we should be OK for a couple of days. More important is to get the B12 & folate working on his main problems so we have a little hope back; the neurologist sure didn't give us any..

    The Source Dibenzicode 3 mg. has folic acid which is what I bought. the 10 mg. doesn't have it. I should have bought that one and cut up the pills.
  11. therron

    therron

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    HI Pea,
    My former doctor prescribed a ProThera vitamin called MultiThera. He used it for his son with MTHFR issues. It includes methylcolbalamin and methylfolate, along with a host of other vitamins and minerals. Once a doctor prescribes it, he can give permission to order from the company for subsequent supplements.

    therron
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pea,

    The Country Life Dibencozide 3mg has folic acid. The 10mg Source Naturals Dibencozide does not have folic acid. Multis vitrually always have folic acid. It is CHEAP and it is a Twinkie of a vitamin, lasts almost forever.
  13. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Thorne has a number of multis which contain only active B's. I think multis IV and V, but you have to check. I can never remember the numbers. They are sold on iherb.
  14. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Thanks all. I'll look on iHerb for a multi, although it's not the easiest site to search on.

    I did notice the 3mg Adb12 had folic acid but the 10mg. Adb12 did not. I wondered why, but I see it's because they are different brands.

    Therron, thanks for the info. I couldn't get the basic of blood tests done, so I can't imagine asking a doctor for a vitamin, so we're on our own re: the supplements. You're lucky you had the one you did!
  15. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Pea

    It is not easy to get a multi that satisfies the methylation protocol criteria but there are a few.

    MULTI B's:
    Douglas Labs do the active B's as do Pure Encapsulations (but that is not on i-herb any more but can be sourced elsewhere.)

    MULTI VITAMINS:
    I have not taken any of these but I have kept a list of multi's that do not have folic acid that I have come across in my travels. Some of these do not have the B's in active form, some do and from memory one has no B's (which is good if you take the multi B seperately). I suggest you compare ingredients and determine which one suits your needs and complements what you are already taking.

    ProThera vitamin called MultiThera (already suggested above)
    AOR OrthoCore
    AOR Multi Basics 3
    Pure Encapsulations Nutrient 950

    and Vimmortal (which has a funky form of folate -hydro tetrofolinic acid. Personally Id steer clear of this as too little is known or discussed about this form on this forum).
  16. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    12-24 hours for initial washout.
    about 2 weeks to recover from those symptoms (for now at beginning of protocol -at 6-8 week mark)
  17. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Maddietodd - I hope you see this - what kind of potassium do you take?

    Maybe you have told me this before -
    What form and brand of potassium do you take? I am not sure I want to stick with potassium gluconate, and want to have the next one ready. I am considering taking an amino acid form that I saw at the health food store that had a variety of forms in it, so maybe not at IBS starter.
  18. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Rosebud,

    You can always PM me if you're in a rush for an answer! I have citrate from Twinlab and gluconate from Sam's Club. I don't have IBS, so can't speak to how these affect gut symptoms. I don't notice any difference between them.
  19. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Thanks Maddie!

    I wasn't sure if you might catch it on the thread.

    Citrate sounds like it could be a better form for me maybe. Me and my gut!!
  20. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    I asked this elsewhere, but maybe it fits better here. I did get the Thorne V with the active B's. Do active B's make a difference in how much folate you need, i.e. do you then need more?

    Also does the type of folate in the Thorne matter?: 167 calcium folinate, and 167 mcg. of L-5-methyltetrahydrofolic per 2.

    How much Solgar metafolin should he take per day considering below; he currently is taking 800mcg. x 2, but that was to offset a large amount of folic acid he no longer is taking. Should I just have him take one metafolin in the morning in combination with below?:
    B12: 2 multi's/day plus the extra B12s, he will be taking 6.15mg. of MethylB12 and 1.225mg. of AdB12 per day.
    Folate: 2 multi's/day will be taking 167mcg. calcium folinate, and 167 mcg. of L-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid per day
    Plus the Adb12 has 200 mcg. folic acid per day

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