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Question for Fredd and others: Ramping up B dosage question: Ratio of Folate to B12?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by chilove, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Hello Fred and all,

    While I'm ramping up my dosages what ratio of folate to b12 to I want to maintain? It was hard for me to interrupt that on Fredd's basic protocol page.

    After just two weeks I'm up to 4 of the 800mcg Solgar folates and 2 of the Jarrow 1000 mcg B12 as well as one B multi with no folate per day. I take a dibencozide every third day.

    Do we want to be taking roughly double the amount of folate as B12 in general? Or what?

    Thanks!

    Audrey
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Audrey,

    I wish it were so clear and simple. I know of no fixed ratio, though in myself and others there does seem to be some better range. I think that can be significant but may vary by the person. For me for instance , much of the Metafolin is just needed to compete with the folinic from veggie folate. Again right now is the most stable period with Metafolin I've had as I get a handle on this paradoxical folate deficiency.
    L'engle likes this.
  3. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    I'm really in the dark here.. can you give me some recommendation to proceed with? I really have no idea... or should I just experiment?

    Thanks!
  4. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    For what it's worth, I take 2 drops of hydroxy B12 (2,000mcg total) daily, and 4 solgar metafolin (3,200mcg total) 3 times a day. As long as I eat very little folate, this works pretty well. And, though you didn't ask, 5 caps of potassium 3x per day.

    I'm just at the beginning of experimenting, and of course HB12 isn't equivalent to the active forms.

    Madie
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Chilove,

    I hope some answers will be forthcoming from the questions raised on the new thread on balanace I started yesterday. There are 3 differnt protocols in a multitude of variations being done here, the active b12 protocol ABP, the Simplified Methyaltion protocol SMP and the hybrid, the ABP done with SMP strategies. This is complicated becasue right NOW we are learning about this whole induced folate deficiency problem and some ramifications and complications that have been creeping to light since uncovered over the past few weeks. This is being done in the open, transparantly, instead of hidden off in a lab somewhere with what seems like an overnight answer based on 10 years of work hidden from view where all the warts and uncertainties can't be seen. At best there can be some guidance, at worst you will respond in a completely unexpected way. Somebody said about lab rats, "You can take a genetic pure strain for 100 generations that has performed reliably and predicatably for 30 years and any particular rat will do exactly as it pleases" or something to that effect.

    So basically what is happening here could be compared to a supercomputer running on thousands of different processors with different programs and then we get to see the outcomes covering a whole spectrum all trying to solve the same basic problem..
  6. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    That right? You take 15 capsules of K per day??? How many mgs per cap? Just seems like a lot, makes me wonder if Im getting even half enough.

    Lou
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I take at least the same amount. There's 99mg in the caps.
  8. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Lou!

    Yup! They're little bitty things, and I do take 5 (x 99mg) at a time. I could take less in terms of relief from muscle cramps (neck, shoulder) and headaches, but I noticed that this amount improves my sleep.

    Madie
  9. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    I need at least that amount most days as well...
  10. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Hi Madie, you too, Adreno,

    Ohhh, I see, basically 1500 mgs, I was thinking in terms of 500 mg capsules. But no, this amount both of you take seems quite reasonable, especially given our tendencies. Thanks to you both.

    Lou
  11. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I did an analysis of this ratio awhile back (I was wondering about this too) and on both the Simplified and Freddd's protocol it's about 5:1 - B12 to folic acid.
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Yeah, but all prescription medicines and multivitamins I've seen have higher levels of folate. Also in the SMP, active B12s are not used, and this might make a difference, since far less than the 2mg hydroxy is converted.
  13. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    And then is the ratio different if you use folic acid vs. methylfolate..

    And if you are taking both forms, how much methylfolate does folic acid cancel out. 4x, right?
    It can be difficult to find some supplements without folic acid, like multi's, or the 3mg Adb12.

    Is it more dangerous to have too much folate, or too little?
  14. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    But then it's complicated by the fact that this is a large and complex system of interactions we're talking about, and we're all different. At the moment, I'm taking 2,000mcg hydroxy B12 and 9600mcg metafolin. I have no idea why this is working.
  15. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    I've taken up to 15-18 of them in a day. (99mg potassium)
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    Isn't it great that it is working though? Here I am 9 years later still refining what I started on May 21st, 2003 at 6:05 pm with an mb12. I think that the researchers doing the research for Merck and Deplin at 7.5 and 15mg doses got it about right, at least for those of us need the Metafolin. This vitamin has again changed my life. When I started those seemed like HUGE doses because I grew up in the 400mcg of folic acid was all and more wasn't safe era. I had to challange all the assumptions about what was a proper amount of these vitamins. Part of the reason was I worked up very slowly and cautiously. If I had learned faster I wouldn't have such a damaged neurology now.
    Lou and L'engle like this.
  17. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Oh, Freddd, I love that you remember the exact moment! And yes, I'm insanely grateful for this exploration. The 'feeling better' target keeps moving around and hiding in new places, but I know it's there. I'm determined to out-sleuth it. It's pretty fun to do this with so many people bouncing ideas around together!
    L'engle likes this.
  18. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    I dont believe that the ratio is different when using folic acid or 5_MTHF - its just that the manufacturers are often not aware of the PAradoxical Folate Deficiency and use the two interchangeably.

    There is no known ratio on how much methylfolate the folic acid displaces. It will depend on the individual and their polymorphisisms, usually the MTHFR. For some, there is no difference but I think that if an individual responds to methylation or requires it, there is an underlying problem and it it best to replace all folic acid with 5-MTHF. Multi's without can be found and there are several.

    There are no known side effects to 5-MTHF. Deplin side effects indicate that the side effects are no worse than those of placebo.

    There have been some studies implicating folic acid (> RDA) with increased cancer risk, however these studies are for folic acid and the conclusions cannot be paralleled to 5-MTHF as the folic acid is synthetic and not the same as found in nature. Deplin (together with baby asprin) is widely given to women who have a MTHFR polymorphism and want to conceive but have had either one or more miscarriages. The vast majority of these women then successfully carry full term in one or more pregnancies - so on this basis, should be very safe.

    Under-dosing wont improve methylation sufficiently so just fine tune until you have the dose right. Also, I take some (perverse?) comfort in that DEplin comes in 7.5mg as the smallest dose. Thats 9.4 Solgar metafolin's. There is no logic there but it a triangulation point.
    madietodd likes this.
  19. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Thanks, Topaz! That's just what I wanted to hear.

    Let me know of any multi's without folic acid if you know of them.

    Over the last several days we've greatly reduced his folic acid vs. the folapro (with 5 mg. methyl B12)
    started out: 2,800 mcg of folic acid between the B12 (400 mcg.) & the multi's (800 mcg. x 3), no folapro.
    then: added 2 folapros = 2,800 folic acid; 1,600 mcg. folapro
    now: 800 folic acid; 1,600 mcg. folapro

    Hate to jinx anything, but Tuesday evening I noticed another big (good) difference where he was back to his quick mannerisms vs. seeming like he was 90 years old. There had been some small improvements over the last couple weeks with only folic acid, but we needed to step it up. Yes, something is working here too!
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    You bet I remember the time and day. It was the moment I knew I was holding a "GET OUT OF HELL" pass in my hand. It wasn't free and it wasn't as simple as I hoped at that time. And it was the help of others that pointed me at it.

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