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Question about "overmethylation"

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Red04, May 25, 2013.

  1. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    Maybe this has been answered. But what is the theory for why a healthy person can't over drive the methylation cycle? Also once someone recovers with a low and slow method are they able to over drive methylation?
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I think it's been suggested that the people here are more likely to have a strong reaction to methylation supplements compared to "healthy" people, but I believe this was for reasons other than overmethylation/overdriving the methylation cycle. From what dbkita said, he seemed to think healthy people would also have a reaction to methylation supplements, but I don't know if he gave a reason why. I don't know where to draw the line between sick and healthy either. There are people here with chronic illnesses that are too disabled to work, but there are also so-called "healthy" people working full-time that are anything but healthy. Especially in America where we have an obesity epidemic and all the consequences of poor nutrition.
  3. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Could someone translate for this newbie?

    I have been doing the methylation supplements for 6 weeks are so, but what is 'overdriving'? And what is 'low and slow'?

    Thanks a bunch :).
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This thread talks about overmethylation and some of the symptoms:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/what-does-overmethylation-feel-like.22229/
    I don't think the symptoms from taking too high of a dose are necessarily from "overdriving the methylation cycle", but maybe some of the time they are.
    Rich and Freddd have different approaches to methylation. Rich tends to favor "low and slow" and only doing what you're comfortable with while Freddd prefers higher doses and more methyl donors and "pushing through" adverse symptoms. People have had success with both approaches. You'll have to find out what works best for you. I find that higher doses make my health worse so I don't have a choice in terms of whether or not I do "low and slow"
    Valentijn likes this.
  5. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    Over-methylation is a big unknown. Some people have adverse reactions from methylation supplements. If someone can really over stimulate the methylation cycle, why can't a healthy person? Or can they? How about people who have recovered?

    Healthy person = someone without me/CFS.
    Victronix likes this.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So you think the 300 lb guy flipping burgers and spending his evening drinking beer and watching TV has a perfectly well running methylation cycle?
    Creekee likes this.
  7. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    I don't have a full understanding of it, but I think its about whether the chemical structures in your body accept methyls or not -- if you are already fully methylated, there is no space and need for any methyls to be added, hence, nothing changes, hence, no side effects or potassium sink or anything else. It's a chemical reaction that can happen, but doesn't happen if there is no room for CH3 to be added anywhere.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_group

    But this is just my hazy understanding of it.

    I've seen people eat mB12 like candy and have zero reaction no matter how much they take. They are regular people who get colds and have bad days, are overweight, etc.
    L'engle likes this.
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Everyone can overmethylate, healthy or not. PWMEs just seem more sensitive towards the effects.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  9. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    Of course not. For the purpose of this question he is. Why would we even discuss other completely unrelated unhealthy people in this thread? That's why I clarified what I meant. Instead of replacing "healthy people" with "people without me/CFS" and discussing the question you try to derail it with talk about the general publics health.

    I don't believe I can over-methylate. I don't believe my wife can either. At least not very easily. So I was wondering if someone had a theory on it so I could understand it better. Overmethylation makes sense in many regards, but I have been wondering about this aspect of it.
  10. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    I don't understand all the chemical stuff, but that seems logical. Are people who recover still at risk of over methylation?
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Based on a study done with Rich's protocol I agree with Rich that not everyone needs a high dose, but I don't understand his theory of overdriving the methylation cycle well enough to have an opinion about it. For anyone who is interested in studying the theory, this is how he explains it:
    (from multiple posts which is why there is some duplicate information)
  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I've heard of the case of one guy (I think this was at Ben Lynch's forum but don't quote me on that). Anyway, this guy was healthy, but found out he had MTHFR, so he started taking supps for it as a preventative. He ran into overmethylation problems and had to discontinue. Even after he discontinued, it took awhile for things to clear out.

    If you do happen to overmethylate, Ben Lynch suggests taking nicotinic acid to soak up methyl groups. This would be another clue that you were overmethylating - if you took nicotinic acid it and it was helpful.
  13. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    If you do happen to overmethylate, Ben Lynch suggests taking nicotinic acid to soak up methyl groups

    Or it would seem that potassium will also alleviate the symptoms (without losing ground by reversing the methylation), but I have not seen what Ben Lynch has to say on potassium. I tried taking niacin when I was feeling really badly, before I was taking enough potassium, and it didn't do anything to help. I simply continued to get worse.
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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  15. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    He was experimenting with increasing other Bs and he may have discovered a role for B2 interacting with methylfolate and potassium --

    Presumably, that B2 was acting to accelerate the methylation effect. He then concluded that a lower dose of B2 rather than a higher dose was preferable, although in most other things, for him, a high dose is preferable and gives him benefits.
    ahmo likes this.
  16. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    I guess the question would then become, why would people without MTHFR not be able to over-methylate?
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Well Lotus,

    Freddd prefers higher doses and more methyl donors and "pushing through" adverse symptoms. People have had success with both approaches.

    You ought to read the things I write instead of repeating of repeating something that never was. I suggest the use of solving the problem and for instance taking potassium. PUSHING THROUGH low potassium is a terribly deadly stupid thing to do. So please stop making these false statements. I have been suggesting a titration to 100mcg absorbed which is well within Rich's 1000mcg "reasonable dose". Higher doses only if appropriate and as a care titration. So STOP MAKING IT UP. Quote me in context with a link so people cab see what I am saying.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    LOTUS,
    I ran into something that caused certain symptoms and stopped other things caused by an experimental titration to a higher dose of B2. I stopped it and went back to basics and am now going to trial smaller steps of each of these separate and combined. You see it is important to know that B1 and B2 and B3 can act as accelerators in these processes and need to be used in a balanced way. Once I experienced what happened with B2 AND what reversed it, I was able to explain to some people that the "detox" they were experiencing was being caused by taking too much B2 and B3.

    I am always running trials, looking for "perfection", getting CNS neurological healing and keep it healing. I am and have been quite thoroughly cured as in recovered and rehabilitated and no longer have the symptoms of CFS/ME/FMS and haven't for 5 or 6 years. I still have the damage of Sub Acute Combined Degeneration and plenty of symptoms. I was still broken in half sideways with spinal fractures and nerve root damage. I still have whatever my genetics may be. I also don't have symptoms that I have had for my first 55 years of life.

    Angular cheilitis and IBS and low potassium don't ME/CFS/FMS define. Are you including Sub Acute Combined Degeneration which causes neurological pain among other things, as being within the definition of these 3 disorders; ME/FMS/CFS

    So Lotus, how do you define CURED rather than your preferred "cured".
  19. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    I think pushing through the symptoms is something I have mentioned too often. It's probably the wrong verb.

    I think by "pushing through", we should say, embracing the reactions and start-up symptoms as signs of improvement or clues to what needs to be added/tirated whatever. Don't run from a "bad" reaction. Don't mix protocols. Don't outsmart the protocol and try to piece a bunch of other things in.

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