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Question about Opiates

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Justin30, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

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    Hi everyone,

    I have a question about opiates.

    Here goes:

    I am wondering what their mode of action is in the brain?

    Meaning do opiates increase or keep seratonin, dopamine, acetylcholine and one other in the brain?

    Or do they increase the production of these neurotransmitters?

    Or do they block the neuotransmitters from leaving the brain?

    Or do they replace deficiencies of the neurotransmitters?

    Or do they rebalance them?

    I am wondering that if by supplementing instead of using an opiate could you achieve the same effect using for example:

    5HTP
    L Dopa
    Achetylcholine such as Alpha GPC
    St Johns Wart
    And other supplements.

    Can someone also clarify what are the 4 main neurotransmiters?

    I do know that opiates have an effect on the MU receptors can some also suggest something natural that works on this.

    Further do help in decreasing neuro inflamation?

    I am trying to get a better understanding so I can supplment as opposed to using an opiate.

    They help great for my pain but am wondering if my using the natural route I can somewhat achieve this.

    Thanks again,
     
  2. Living Dead

    Living Dead Senior Member

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    They work on opiate receptors, such as mu reseptors.

    No.

    The only possible replacements are LDN (which block opiate receptors temporarily, to make the body produce more of its natural opiates (endorphins) and D-phenylalanine (sold in combination with L-phenylalanine as DL-phenylalanine).

    Opiates increase inflammation.

    Morphine is natural, from the opium poppy.
     
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  3. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    Hayden, Idaho
    Lets try to simplify here, and I'll use a pretty standard opiate as an example: Codeine. It is converted to morphine in the liver, and the morphine compound bonds to M-opiod receptor directly, so it activates it in quite a distinct manner. Effects include analgesia, sedation, euphoria etc...through release of endorphins and other "feel good" chemicals.
    This euphoric effect also appears to involve another mechanism in which the GABA-inhibitory interneurons come into play. By attaching to their mu receptors, exogenous opioids reduce the amount of GABA released (see animation). Normally, GABA reduces the amount of dopamine released in the nucleus accumbens. By inhibiting this inhibitor, the opiates ultimately increase the amount of dopamine produced and the amount of pleasure felt.
    That being said, it is difficult to replicate exactly the effects of opiods on the brain with non opiods due to their direct mode of action and addiction susceptibility. Understanding this, other agents that can increase dopamine, acetylcholine, and other endorphins can be used that have a greater safety profile, as long as you are aware of possible interactions taking place.
    Marijuana (CBD and THC) works through a different chemical mechanism, but can be a non-addictive (comparatively) agent of pain relief, while St. Johns wort, as you mentioned, is an effective anti-depressant, albeit perhaps a bit weak in action. What you want to look out for is initiating Serotonin syndrome, which is when more than one serotonergic agents are combined and serotonin builds up excessively in the system. 5 htp plus St. Johns could indeed cause this.....
     
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  4. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    Also, while Dopamine is involved in many neuronal connective types, Acetylcholine acts more to promote "concentration" and ANS action, mainly PNS action. Dopamine is related more with pleasure sensations and a "buzz". That being said, many agents that increase Acetylcholine also have actions on Dopamine, so some stimulants can also relieve pain, increase concentration, and decrease inflammation.
     
    Justin30 likes this.
  5. Skippa

    Skippa Senior Member

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    I have noted a few studies recently that opiates can have effects on opening up energy pathways to mitochondria (very loose layman's way of putting it) involving potassium, oxidative phosphorylation and other stuff ... I am but a layman, but it is clear opiates have far reaching effects across the bodily system...
     
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  6. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    Im sure that they can have an effect on dampening pain sensation and inflammation which may be hindering Mitochondrial respiration.
     
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  7. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    there's definitely some interplay between opioids and the immune system... I would love to see more research done.. e.g., the stanford LDN study showed adding LDN positively impacted immunity & pain, but it was a small study; removing gluten & casein shows positive results for immune health but not sure if any actual studies have been done.. etc.


    Abstract
    Opioids and their receptors have received remarkable attention because they have the ability to alter immune function, which affects disease progression. In vitro and in vivo findings as well as observations in humans indicate that opioids and their receptors positively or negatively affect viral replication and virus-mediated pathology. The present study reviews recent insights in the role of opioids and their receptors in viral infections and discusses possible therapeutic opportunities. This review supports the emerging concept that opioids and their receptors have both favorable and unfavorable effects on viral disease, depending on the type of virus. Targeting of the opioid system is a potential option for developing effective therapies; however caution is required in relation to the beneficial functions of opioid systems.

    KEYWORDS:
    anti-inflammation; immune responses; immunomodulation; opioid receptors; opioid signaling; opioids; therapies; viral infections



    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27446011
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23222260?dopt=Abstract
     
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  8. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    I would recommend looking into kratom. For me its similiar to tramadol. The advantage is even though I take it approximately every 2nd day I have experienced no withdrawal/tolerance symptoms. I am taking it with Low Dose Naltrexone. If I had a tolerance then the naltrexone should put me into withdrawal. That does not happen. Kratom is similiar to opiates but safer
     
  9. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    Looks like there's an attempt to make it illegal in the u.s. ... I wouldn't know where to get it anyway... too bad
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/kratom-drug-ban-may-cripple-promising-painkiller-research/
     
  10. Skippa

    Skippa Senior Member

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    Kratom is illegal in the UK since a couple months ago, at least supplying it is, it got caught under the legal highs ban.

    Warning: I tried it last year to quit my opiate habit at the time, and I used the "toss and wash" method to take it and within 3 days I detroyed my stomach and had ulcers for a couple of months which hurt like $^%€$
     
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  11. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

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    The opiates caused stomach ulcers?
     
  12. Skippa

    Skippa Senior Member

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    Sorry, more clearly, the kratom.

    Just a bunch of ground up, dry leaf matter washed down with water.
     
  13. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

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    What is that stuff ill have to look it up?

    How does it work and is it as effective as opiates?
     
  14. Skippa

    Skippa Senior Member

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    It is a leaf of the mitragyna family I think, they chew it in far asia somewhere or other, it slowly damages the liver I seem to recall, but folks chew it all their lives and go about their business. It is addictive, but less so than opiates, it operates on some of the mu-opiod receptors, and a bunch of other stuff iirc. It somes in different colours (red, green, white).

    Not sure if it's any good because as I said it messed me up, but I have read plenty of anecdotal reports of people replacing their opiate habits with it.

    I do not condone it all all, but then neither do I condemn it.
     
  15. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    This may or may not be true. Some people have noted liver issues but it is not common. Unfortunately we do not have enough research to say either way at this point. That being said your account is the first time I have heard anyone say it caused issues after just 3 days. All the other accounts I have read of liver problem after kratom usage took months to appear

    The NIH has only one case report I can find. Note that it reports the individual has a history excessive alcohol usage.

    https://livertox.niddk.nih.gov/Home/ReferenceCases/kratom
     
  16. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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  17. Skippa

    Skippa Senior Member

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    Didn't hurt my liver, just my stomach. My stomach lining was already weak from chronic ibuprofen useage, and when the kratom came into contact... Goddamn!
     
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  18. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

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    Another good point.....does advil really do a lot of damage to the stomach lining? Always wondered about this.

    Good answers anyone?
     
  19. Skippa

    Skippa Senior Member

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    "Good answers" lol sorry if this answer isn't good.

    The very same mechanism that 'profens use to work on pain relief also happens to control stomach lining regulation. (You can easily google the name of these things... I forget).

    So... Ibuprofen doesn't damage the stomach directly, it reduces the stomach's own protection (the stomach lining) so that other thing, eg stomach acid, come directly into contact with the stomach wall and DO cause damage.

    Ooh here's a link that explains it http://www.news-medical.net/health/Ibuprofen-Mechanism.aspx
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
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  20. Skippa

    Skippa Senior Member

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    Something else interesting about kratom that I heard... Small doses are supposed to be stimulating, and higher doses get more and more relaxing/deprssant. (Eta: sedating was the word that illuded me)
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016

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