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Question about Freddd's B12 Protocol

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by minniemom2011, Mar 16, 2011.

  1. minniemom2011

    minniemom2011

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    I know that I am deficient in B12. I was tested in November and my level at that time was 449 - it later dropped to 329 in January. I am interested in following Freddd's protocol, but my nutritionist has been adamant that I only take the hydroxy form of B12.

    I haven't always followed his advice in the past, so I don't mind ignoring it this time; however, part of the reason he suggested that is because the last time I took the MB12 I was knocked out flat! I had extreme fatigue for several days after. Why would this have happened?

    My other concern is that all of the recommended MB and AD12 lozenges seem to have some type of sugar in them - xylitol, mannitol, sorbitol, etc, etc. I am on a very restricted diet and am not supposed to have any sugar. Are there any other options out there? Thanks!
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi minniemom,

    I haven't always followed his advice in the past, so I don't mind ignoring it this time; however, part of the reason he suggested that is because the last time I took the MB12 I was knocked out flat! I had extreme fatigue for several days after. Why would this have happened?

    A lot of people have a very strong response to the mb12. It can be for any number of reasons such as lack of other cofactors, things that go deficient as soon as the 600 stalled processes all try to start up at once and things like that. That is why the active b12 protocol is not simple, it includes all those other things. Further, you may need the adb12 for energy before you take the mb12.

    My other concern is that all of the recommended MB and AD12 lozenges seem to have some type of sugar in them - xylitol, mannitol, sorbitol, etc, etc. I am on a very restricted diet and am not supposed to have any sugar


    While the sublingual b12s all have very small amounts of sweet alcohols in them, they are not sugar per se. And the amount is so tiny as to be inconsequential for almost everybody. These are what are used in sugar free gums etc and at a fraction of the amount that are in a stick of gum. As with many poisons, dose is everything.

    If you are diabetic I am sure you can find precise info about the impact of sweet alcohols in mg quantities, if there is any concern at all about that. If it is a "sensitivity", be aware that the lack of mb12/methylfolate causes hyper-reactivity to all sorts of things.

    http://www.ynhh.org/about-us/sugar_alcohol.aspx
    Sugar alcohols, also know as polyols, are ingredients used as sweeteners and bulking agents. They occur naturally in foods and come from plant products such as fruits and berries. As a sugar substitute, they provide fewer calories (about a half to one-third less calories) than regular sugar. This is because they are converted to glucose more slowly, require little or no insulin to be metabolized and don't cause sudden increases in blood sugar. This makes them popular among individuals with diabetes; however, their use is becoming more common by just about everyone. You may be consuming them and not even know it.

    Unfortunately, there are some negatives associated with sugar alcohols. The most common side effect is the possibility of bloating and diarrhea when sugar alcohols are eaten in excessive amounts. There is also some evidence that sugar alcohols, much like fructose (natural fruit sugar) in fruit and fruit juice can cause a "laxative effect." Weight gain has been seen when these products are overeaten. The American Diabetes Association claims that sugar alcohols are acceptable in a moderate amount but should not be eaten in excess. Some people with diabetes, especially Type I diabetics, have found that their blood sugars rise if sugar alcohols are eaten in uncontrolled amounts.


    but my nutritionist has been adamant that I only take the hydroxy form of B12.

    My opinion is not in concert with that which is probably based on 60 years of research on inactive b12s. However, other people may express differing opinions. And opinions and hypothesis are subject to change which is happening right now with folic and folinic acid. As you can try one and then the other you can test the idea for yourself. But in all cases I suggest all the basics and methylfolate.
  3. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    minniemom,
    if it helps, I'm on GAPS too (2 years now and SCD before that) and if anything I've noticed an improvement in digestion, and appetite, since starting on some sublingual methylB12.
    HTH
    Anne.
  4. minniemom2011

    minniemom2011

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    Freddd,

    Thanks for the input. I read a ton of your posts and, although I can't understand hardly anything due to my extreme brain fog, I do believe you've done your research, so I value your opinion! Besides, I'm desperate to get rid of this brain fog and start feeling normal again, so I'm willing to try just about anything.

    Oh - also, are you saying I should start the b12 at the same time as the methylfolate? I've been introducing a new supplement one at a time so I could check for reactions. Is that not a good idea with this protocol?
  5. minniemom2011

    minniemom2011

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    Thanks Anne! That does reassure me. Would you mind sharing with me exactly which supplements you're on - types and brands? Thanks so much!
  6. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    I PM'd you minniemom :)
  7. minniemom2011

    minniemom2011

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    Thanks so much Anne! I really appreciate it.

    Freddd or anyone else that can answer this question - I'm used to introducing supplements one by one so I can look for any reactions to them. Is this protocol one where the B12 and methylfolate should be started at the same time or would it be alright to begin with the B12 for a few days and then add methylfolate? Thanks!
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Minniemom,

    I had been taking all the basics for decades when I started mb12. I added the other critical cofactors 1 at a time as I saw what wasn't working. It was a targeted adding, not throwing mud up on the wall. However, folate is an essential basic and is assumed. That folic/folinic acid can work in a negative or ineffective way for at least some of us makes Metafolin the required basic. Mb12 may not work well at all without it. I see no problem with starting adb12 separately. However, it did hold up a lot of healing for me for 9 months until I started it. However, if you are talking adding 30 different things one at a time it is like hunting moose with a BB gun. The people that do this end up with 2 days of effectiveness followed by weeks of stalled healing and regressing until they figure out which of many things is holding them up, and it can be almost anything in the basics as well as the critical. And that happens over and over again. Mb12 appears to make all the other things work better because teamed with folate, they are the most limiting factors generally.

    Also, the effects of adding it one at a time is not predictive of the effects of adding it at the same time, especially Metafolin/mb12.
  9. Lee Ann

    Lee Ann

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    Hi Freddd

    I've read several of your B12 posts and I am totally lost...I don't know which direction to take....One of the first things I was told by a doctor almost two years ago was that I was borderline deficient in B12... 250 was my number.. so I started injections monthly on cy b12...Man...it was fantastic...I couldn't wait for my next shot because I knew the next couple of days would return my health back to normal...It was like heaven and temporary.... After several months I noticed the effects werent as dramatic and I was soooo disappointed. I started doing some research and found the M B12 was the one to use. I live in a very small town and found it almost impossible to get...but I did and had it compounded. I saw no difference in the MB12 and a doctor suggested I try HB12 by injections... I have been doing injections every couple of weeks for the past 3 months. I can tell a slight difference in my energy but not like in the beginning.... Can you tell me what might be happening and what I can do better or different. My last blood work my level was around 1000. Should I start your plan and see if I get any results then the Methylation protocol or vice versa..... I'm really confused.

    Thanks for your time
    Lee Ann
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lee Ann,

    Your experience is exactly why I discourage injection of mb12, it isn't reliable. Light during or after preparation breaks it down into hydoxycbl. And even when the pharmacy uses a red safelight, and you wrap the vial and syringe in foil so it isn't light exposed to any light at all ever, there is a lot of difference of quality from one batch to another due to probably due to the original organism used to brew it. Use one of the two 5 star sublinguals. It is far more relaiable and effective than most injections. A Jarrow 5mg which will put about 1mg into serum, same as the usual injection, is 30 cents, about the cost of the syringe all by itself. It is far more reliable as it is needed every day for healing. Then the cofactors mentioned are important. Without those the b12 becomes pretty useless because it exhausts other things needed very quickly. Your experience with the cyanocbl was pretty typical, at first it converts and is active and then it exhausts the things needed for it to convert to the active forms or it exhausts the cofactors needed for healing if it does convert.
  11. Lee Ann

    Lee Ann

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    Hi Freddd
    I appreciate the info.... I think your plan is the route I'm taking. Stay close by because I know i'm gonna have questions. I'm assuming in the b12 thread you have everything listed that is needed. thanks
    Is this what I need??

    Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness

    Country Life Dibencozide (adenosylb12) 3mg under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness

    Solgar Metafolin 800mcg

    Jarrow B-Right b-complex, 1 capsule twice a day

    Potassium, your choice of brand and form - this is insurance against hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and potentially fatal - if you have blood tests, potassium is usually checked, midrange, around 4.5 is good. Some people will have problems at bottom of "normal" range, 3.5-4.0 as I do.

    Omega3 fishoils - essential for myelin sheathing for the nerves, many brands will do, 2-6+ capsules per day, I buy it at Costco, house brand. This is available in many supermarkets

    thanks and I will keep you posted
    Lee Ann
  12. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Hi Lee Ann,

    I believe both the Country Life Dibencozide (Ab12) and the Jarrow b-right are no longer part of Freddd's protocol, as they both contain Folic Acid, which is causing an issue with Metafolin absorption as the two compete with each other. I believe Freddd is in the process of trialing Source Naturals Dibencozide (as are others) and is going to try Douglas Labs B-complex w/Metafolin in place of the Jarrow B-Right. Freddd can better explain. :thumbsup:
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lee Ann,

    For best probability of good results get a b-complex without folic acid (any form of folate of folinate except methylfolate-Metafolin) or cyanocbl because we don't know yet what percentage of people are affected by folic acid. Even if they are low dose two or 3 can be taken at a time and missing components can be filled in with separates. That is what I am doing at the moment. So the Source Natural Dibencozide may or may not be an adequate substitute. There is an oral capsule by Dibol that may be sufficient as well. I need to do some tests and it takes me longer to do these because it doesn't clear out as quickly as mb12.

    You need the basics like calcium, magnesium, a,d,e,C etc. Many of the brands and exact forms don't matter or matter individually. The NOW high gamma 8 factor E complex is an excellent choice.
  14. Lee Ann

    Lee Ann

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    Hi Fredd

    Ok I ordered all the above. I guess I should have waited for your reply. So don't use the jarrow B complex or the Country Life? Is that correct?
    I checked with The Vitamin shoppe and they carry the Source Naturals dibencozide but all I could find was 10 mg. I haven't had any luck with finding a B complex w.o folic. Do you have any suggestions? I really appreciate your help
  15. Lee Ann

    Lee Ann

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    thanks drex...
    I'm confused and need all the help i can get
  16. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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  17. Lee Ann

    Lee Ann

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    Hi David,
    I checked this link and call but they do not sell to the general public only doctors or pharms....do you have any other suggestions?
  18. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    I got it from needs.com, iHerb is reportedly going to have it soon. Pure Encapsulations also makes a B complex with Metafolin, available from Amazon.
  19. Lee Ann

    Lee Ann

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    David,
    Thanks a bunch...i just ordered it....What would we do w/out each others help?
    Lee Ann
  20. illsince1977

    illsince1977 A shadow of my former self

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    Freddd,
    I too, ordered the above list of Lee Ann's after reading this on the other forum you pointed me to just last week. Is this not a correct list? If it's not correct, could you please post a current correct list in full?

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