Question about anerobic threshold and m.e

I know people with m.e are advised to never go above their anerobic threshold but what I've never been clear about is do people with M.E reach their anerobic threshold much quicker than healthy people? Many thanks in advance

IMO yes

Yes, that is what I was told -- our AT is lower than that of healthy people and we reach it faster. It is certainly true of me.

Thanks for the replies. I'm housebound and can only walk a few steps at any one time. When I've reached my limit and need to sit or usually lie down fast, is that me reaching my anerobic threshold?

It's hard to tell without more info, but that sounds more like some kind of orthostatic intolerance.

I actually took a modified test for an NIH study but it wasn't adequately reviewed with me. Anyone know how to assess the numbers? What is the actual AT number? I see AT Vslope and AT %V02m to top and a bunch of different markers on the side like Heart Rate. I think my test is really suspicious; my HR spiked to over 200 when they put the mask on me - I have very dysregulated breathing. I have a relatively low V02 max but my AT might be high.

Do you have a graph that has VO2 and VCO2 lines? It might be titled VO2/VCO2. If you have that information you can find your AT by reading your heart rate at the point the two lines cross.

I think because our aerobic system is up the creek without a paddle, we rely on our anaerobic energy system, this system is only used for short bursts of energy etc so if we are using this system more then we should, we will become fatigue easier. Supplement creatine is helpful for anaerobic energy as it helps us recycle ADP into ATP.

marathon runners have well developed aerobic systems, 100mtr sprinters have well developed anaerobic systems, even the best sprinter cant keep up going full steam for any great length of time. So we are like the sprinter, we have energy to sprint from something life threatening or do activity in short spurts but we also have a poor ability to recover from this. I think its also this that makes us appear well to others as they may see us vacuuming the floor but we dont have the energy to keep cleaning for a few hours etc etc so we rest and do things in short bursts. PEM is because our body is trying to recover from this type of activity.

thats my 10 cents worth.

cheers!!!

I agree with heaps but it's only my experience and not based on any scientific info. After I got sick in high school, I recovered to about 80% but I didn't know I hadn't gotten all the way well. I tried to play one more season of football and couldn't get any level of aerobic fitness. Football's pretty anaerobic but we did a lot of running before the season started and for the first time ever I couldn't gain any level of aerobic capacity. I did OK on the field by comparison to running a mile but I had lost a step there as well. I eventually got a DX of activity-induced asthma but it was really ME.

Great thanks! 156. The readings I thought were really odd were breathing freq, ventilation, and breathing reserve. I don't know if they are actually meaningful but they seemed to be off quite a bit.

At one stage with cfs i was able to do a reasonable amount of weight training twice a week, when i trained i made sure i didnt exercise to a level that made me out of breath, at that stage i was still able to lift heavy weights. Around this same time i tried to exercise aerobically so i started walking the kids to school which was about a kilometre to school and another home. My plan was to do this every day as it is only a short walk??? within 3 days of walking i was buggered with PEM etc etc. So my experience was my anaerobic system was working to a certain degree and i was able to lift weights heavy then the average guy on the street, but my aerobic fitness was off totally crap. Now i have started some light weight training a couple times a week and use alot of supps to help with exercise energy and recovery. previous attempts to gently improve aerobic fitness have resulted in worsening cfs symptoms.

cheers!!!

I lost all my core strength and tone in the years I've had ME/CFS, so I'm trying deal with that first. So I'm not working with weights yet, just a very few core body exercises in a supine position, 60 secs at a time. **sigh** Baby steps.

Baby steps is a good plan, even anaerobic stuff can cause PEM if do too much.
Do u do things like planks for core strength. I think core training in small amounts can be very helpful for us cfsers.

cheers!!!

I find that anaerobic exercise, in the form of short sets of weight lifting, is reasonably tolerable for me, but aerobic exercise really kills me.

Even though my activity level is quite a bit higher now than it was last year - can clean the house - go out a few times a week, i find i still cant add in ANY exercise of any sort at all. I have tried adding in light yoga stretching (literally a couple once a day), i have tried a short walk every day, i have tried 2 minutes gentle peddling on my exercise bike. After a few days i always start to get sicker again. Its so frustrating because i feel like i need to get fitter and stretch my muscles a bit more - i used to swim and walk and cycle and garden - even with mild M.E. (although increasing my fitness over a certain threshold was impossible no matter how much exercise i did)

For me i believe that as my energy has improved i do more in the house and a little bit in the garden and this increases my activity to the point where i cant add in any exercise as well. For me i have come to the conclusion that just being more active in day to day life has to be as good as exercise, although i get depressed sometimes at all the weight i have gained and strength i have lost. If things are going well i can garden a couple of sessions in the week - but i cant even keep this up week in week out.
Its all so bloody frustrating!
Justy.

Its still sounds like your moving forward if u have improved over the last 12 months. Its time and waiting for im provement thats hard, maybe 12 months from now u might be able to do more. I think we have to test our boundaries every so often to see what we can cope with, but not push ourselves if that makes sense. Its frustrating when we use to function at a much higher level pre cfs. Keep experimenting with different things and try to keep positive, hopefully this time next year u can tell us your swimming again.

cheers!!!

Doing more around the house is probably enough exercise for you. The problem for me is that I still can't do housework -- too aerobic for my system, or maybe I have some mild OI -- so in order to maintain basic health I do a teensy tiny amount of core exercises laying down (from here: http://www.mstrust.org.uk/information/exercises/index_exercises.jsp).

I concur, it's all bloody frustrating.

PS: Did you do anything in particular that improved your energy?

I have some info on my papers related to "Ventilation" but there are so many acronyms that I can't tell if I have anything about breathing frequency and breathing reserve. If you want, I might be able to compare info with you if you can be more specific about the data. Too bad there's not a standard presentation of data so that easy comparisons can be made.

BTW: The AT of a healthy person is about 0.80(220 - age), so you can determine whether your AT is low for a person your age.

Soc, I'm sorry for being slow on the uptake but I don't understand your advice on how to work out your AT approx, the 0.80 (220-age). Please can you explain further. Big thank you

Note that this is for healthy people, not for people with ME/CFS. It is a very rough estimate using the following mathematical equation: AT = 0.80 x (220 - your age) If a PWME used this number as their AT, it would likely have them working far beyond what their bodies can handle.

For example, if you are a healthy 24 yo your AT should be approximately 0.80 x (220 - 24) = 156 bpm
You could also use this graphic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Exercise_zones.png

PWME can have a much lower AT. Mine is about 10 bpm lower than a healthy person my age should have. That's not really bad. I've heard of cases where the AT of a PWME was 20 bpm lower than expected. I think it's quite variable among PWME, so it's difficult to guess what your own AT might be. There might be some more concrete info in publications by Stevens, Snell, and the other folks at Pacific Fatigue Labs.