The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
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Queries about my crash

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Johnmac, Sep 23, 2014.

  1. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    I had 3 good weeks on the Fredd protocol, with many gains: Weight increased, psoriasis faded, sleep requirement dropped 2 hours, more energy, more libido, depression-proofed, brainfog gone, could drop my hydrocortisone dose from 20 to 15mg/day, better blood-sugar response, much stabler gut.

    Sfx few & transient.

    But then, after doubling my m-folate dosage, I crashed: jitters, abdomen tension, total amotivation, anhedonia, no concentration, cold hands & feet, temp plunges below 36 (hasn't happened for 2 years), higher startle reflex, sleep a lot. Some heart palps, but K fixes them okay.

    It feels quite like serotonin syndrome - I'm even a bit clammy at times. Niacin helped.

    I stopped everything for 36 hours, & symptoms reduced by 80%.

    But symptoms returned today after only 2 half-tabs of metafolin & 1 half-tab mB12. (Half the previous doses.)

    I'm not panicked about it, as all I have to do is stop taking the supps & symptoms go. What I can't work out is why I am so sensitive to metafolin (and/or mB12?) when I was taking much higher doses without harm?

    They could have "built up" I guess - but I thought both had pretty short half-lives?

    I thought LCF might have a role, as I had anxiety from ALC before. But no LCF today.

    Any insights?

    Thanks to all...
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Freddd's protocol warns about potassium drops when the methylation cycle starts up again. Make sure to read the relevant threads by Freddd, some of them are pinned at the top of this very forum section. He's very clear on how to deal with this issue.

    I don't have much experience with this problems, so I can't provide more details but the idea is to go slow when upping methylfolate and methyl-B12 and look for symptoms of potassium deficiency.

    Other people such as Dr. Lynch say that methylfolate will raise nitric oxide levels which in turn can worsen inflammation, increase anxiety etc... so you'll have to find the right amount to avoid these side effects. Maybe your body will adjust with time and you'll be able to increase the dosage.

    That's more or less what has happened to me, especially with active B12. It has taken 2 years to go from a few crumbs to a larger dose.

    I am sure other people who are more familiar with Freddd's protocol will chime in.

    cheers
     
    Wayne likes this.
  3. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks PP. I haven't noticed potassium making a difference when I take it, except to the heart palps which it stops.

    But having now read some of the Freddd posts you referred to (thanks for that), I'll start taking 1g x 3/day.

    The strange thing for me remains that I have been happy on 1,600mcg m-folate a day for a while, then suddenly I crashed; and now can hardly have any m-folate without ill-effect.
     
  4. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    You mean 1g x3 of potassium supplements?
    Maybe try starting a bit lower than that. 500mg for example. It can be a bit hard on the stomach at higher dosages plus adding 3g of extra potassium all of a sudden seems too much.

    In general it's best to start low and increase gradually, even if it requires a bit more patience.
     
  5. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Yes, well actually 1g of potassium chloride powder three times a day.

    Okay, I'll go a bit lower & slower as you suggest. Ta.
     
  6. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Ok. In such case 1000mg potassium chloride should provide around 500-520 of elemental potassium. So taking it 2-3 times a day is fine. No problem :)
     
  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Are you taking thyroid support?

    izzy
     
  8. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
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  9. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @Johnmac ,

    That sounds like me on cold medicine!

    I understand from @Freddd that methylfolate doesn't wash out of your system very quickly, but mB12 does. I do well on several times more mB12 than mfolate. I think @sregan may have nailed it. And for me, it's taking the mB12 spaced throughout the day more than the total amount I take. I actually have been taking 15x more mB12 than mfolate.
     
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  10. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Yeah, space out your MB12 with very small bites. I nibble on mine several times throughout the day. Maybe best to take every time you take your mfolate
     
  11. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    Radically increasing folate may help you. It did me. Read up on "paradoxical methylfolate deficiency" and the "donut hole". Searching those terms should yield you lots of results.

    However, it's your choice as to whether or not you're willing to do this. And everyone is different as far as what sides or what level of side effects they can tolerate.

    My experience was pretty similar to yours and radically increasing mfolate helped me get over the crash in less than one week.

    At that point I still had a lot of traveling to do on this journey (still do), but the increase in mfolate helped me get over the crash very quickly. But it was a leap of faith. Again, your choice whether to make it.

    And by radical I mean I increased from just a few mgs to over 20mg within a matter of days. Some may call that irresponsible but it's what I did and it worked out just fine. YMMV.

    Freddd's posts explain the theory behind increasing in the face of side effects much better than I ever could (or than I have time for right now).

    Good luck, let us know how it goes!

    P.S. LCF may also have a role. It's very potent and can "speed you up" quite a bit, helping you crash since your body isn't ready for the increase in metabolism/healing. Recommend to reduce that down to very little (250mg/day or less) for a while until you get feeling better. You may even want to stop it for a week or so, but please get back on it at a much reduced dosage as soon as you're comfy doing so. It's a crucial supplement.
     
  12. Alea Ishikawa

    Alea Ishikawa

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    @Johnmac

    You may be trying to take things on too quickly. It sounds like you may have experienced the "honeymoon" period, which can happen for some weeks before methylation really gets cranking. Like Caledonia said, back down on your dose and find something that's more comfortable. Consider taking L-methylfolate every other day.

    Alternatively, as whodathunkit said, you can try increasing folate. This is very risky, though, and some people have been damaged by it. I personally wouldn't risk it if you can titrate up slowly over time.


    Definitely increase your methylB12 dose! I'd suggest to anyone to take at least a 1:1 ratio, but as Sregan said, genetics may cause you to need significantly more methylB12 than folate.


    One thing to also consider is that tablet amounts can differ. How much methylB12 and folate are you taking based on mcg?
     
    Johnmac likes this.
  13. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks again @PeterPositive . Now I'm regularly taking potassium, do I need to start thinking about adding calcium also?
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
  14. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Yep, 10mcg T3 daily. I need more (low morning temps) but am a little drug-averse. Plus the Freddd protocol was bringing day temps up till recently.
     
  15. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks @sregan ! At last those SNP tests come in useful. After reading your post, a few hours ago I put half a 1mg tab of Enzy mB12 under my lip, & over a couple of hours felt about 15 or 20% better. I'd say at the moment I feel "crap" as opposed to "diabolical". That's progress.

    More importantly, it more or less proves that the culprit is not mB12. It therefore has to be m-folate or LCF. (Or both?)

    I read the thread, ta. (I've done 2 years of Cutler heavy metal chelation, so that was interesting.)

    I also read the MTRR link you gave: "If you have both an MTRR A66G mutation and an MTR A2756G mutation, you may want to consider higher doses, up to 5,000 mcg per day." I do have both those, as you point out. So I will start tilting things to mB12 more.

    But it also says, "It is especially important to supplement with methylfolate if you also have the MTHFR C677T or MTHFR A1298C mutation." I do have the latter, so methylfolate will still feature I guess. I suppose the only way to find a ratio will be trial & error. 2 or 3 to 1 sounds a reasonable place to start.

    I'll update as things progress.

    Thanks again,

    John
     
  16. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks Alea. I've been taking 2,000mcg of the Enzy mB12 per day. And 1,600mcg metafolin. The problems worsened dramatically when I doubled the latter to 3,200.

    So, yes, I have been taking more m-folate than mB12 - which may be the problem given my genetics, right?

    As stated to @sregan I will increase the mB12, especially in relation to the metafolin. But I'll start low & build slowly.

    My only question mark is whether LCF is doing something, as I had anxiety from Acetyl l carnitine in the past - enough to stop taking it. But that won't be too hard to figure out when I resume the LCF (also much more cautiously).

    Thanks again for the input.
     
  17. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks @whodathunkit . I think I'll try the "more mB12" approach right now - both in absolute terms and in relation to m-folate - as my problems worsened dramatically when I doubled my m-folate.

    Yep, 250mg LCF sounds good. One strange thing that happened after beginning it is that my psoriasis faded a lot. I later found a study on the use of fumaric acid against psoriasis (a protocol used widely in Germany). Hopefully the lower dose will work as well.

    I've read Freddd's stuff on the paradoxical deficiency (& understand bits of it), but I just suspect it may not apply in my case this time.

    Thanks for the input.
     
  18. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    That's a big ratio - thanks for trailblazing that one. Who knows, I may end up there too.

    I thought Freddd said m-folate has a short halflife? Thus the need to take it 4 times a day...

    Spacing the mB12 thru the day sounds good - shall do.

    Thanks again.
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I don't understand how, but I think that the increased energy we get from mB12 is through the thyroid, and I think that after a couple of months on mB12 I became hypothyroid due to iodine insufficiency (I do have antibodies against the thyroid).

    izzy
     
  20. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    @Johnmac

    When it hit me it took a while to repair. Stay on the MB12, some other things that helped me before I discovered I needed more mb12 are here in this blog post:
    Current Supplement Strategy out of the Methyl Trap


    I think you're safe just increasing the mb12 for now then you can up your mfolate when you think you're at a good place. Smart to NOT change too many variables at once, you'll never know what helped and what didn't.

    Also Critterina pointed out make sure to space out your mb12 dose throughout the day. Take a proportional dose with your (1:1 or 2:1 mb12 -> mfolate) but then take smaller amounts of mb12 throughout the day until you hit your target amount. You don't recycle mb12 too good (MTRR) and you use it up very quickly when you get some (MTR).
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
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