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Quercetin's Effect on Mitochondial Production & Fatigue

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by PhoenixBurger, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. PhoenixBurger

    PhoenixBurger Senior Member

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    "Quercetin is one of a broad group of natural polyphenolic flavonoid substances that are being investigated for their widespread health benefits. These benefits have generally been ascribed to its combination of antioxidant and anti-inflammatory activity, but recent in vitro evidence suggests that increased mitochondrial biogenesis could play an important role. However, the effects of quercetin on mitochondrial biogenesis and exercise tolerance are unknown. This study examined the effects of short-term quercetin feedings on markers of mitochondrial biogenesis, including expression of PGC-1α and SIRT1, mtDNA and cytochrome c concentration in both skeletal muscle and brain. The data indicate that short-term feedings of the dietary flavonoid quercetin can increase mRNA expression of PGC-1α and SIRT1, and mtDNA and cytochrome c in both skeletal muscle and brain. Furthermore, we determined if these changes in mitochondrial biogenesis were associated with an increase in maximal endurance capacity and voluntary wheel-running activity; both were increased following 7 days of quercetin feedings."

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    Quercetin is probably the only supplement that gives me near 100% relief of my symptoms. I struggle with significant exercise intolerance. Muscle twitching all over my body. Fibromyalgia like pains. Nerve pains. And sensory problems. All heavily associated with systemwide Lack of proper energy production. Possibly qualifying as mitochondrial dysfunction.

    This study goes into great detail analyzing Quercetins ability to generate new, healthy mitochondria in central nervous system and peripheral tissues. Including the brain. Which should play a central role in preventing neurodegenerative disease. Something that has never been analyzed before with Quercetin, I don't think. Additionally, they check for its effect on exercise tolerance, and systemwide mitochondrial efficiency which heavily affects fatigue.

    In my case, a hyperactive immune system, with inflammatory hyperexcitability of nerves and muscles results in my symptoms. Quercetin for some reason completely calms all of this for me. Rather than jumping on it and enjoying the symptom relief however, I started doing some research to see exactly what it does in the body. And ran across this study. I think it may be relevant to many here. Worth a full read.

    http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/296/4/R1071.long

    "Although often ignored, the brain also plays a primary role in exercise tolerance. Cerebral metabolism has important consequences on motivation, mood (e.g., vigor, fatigue, anxiety, depression), and central motor drive from the cortex (20, 27, 31), and increased brain mitochondrial activity could certainly enhance cerebral metabolism. PGC-1α expression is linked to the demand for mitochondrial ATP production and intracellular calcium levels (12, 25), both of which are known to increase under physiologically demanding conditions such as exercise and energy deprivation (12). PGC-1α activates mitochondrial biogenesis and increases oxidative phosphorylation by facilitating transcription, translation, and replication (22). As a result, peak oxygen uptake increases and fatigue is delayed during prolonged exercise (4). SIRT1 functions together with PGC-1α to promote mitochondrial biogenesis (24); SIRT1 interacts with and deacetylates PGC-1α at multiple lysine sites, increasing PGC-1α activity. This information has led to great interest in developing drugs to target the SIRT1-PGC-1α coactivator complex or related signaling pathways in the muscle that would mimic or potentiate the effects of exercise to treat metabolic diseases (17, 24). However, there have been no studies that focus on this effect in the brain. Our data indicate that PGC-1α and SIRT1 expression are increased significantly in both skeletal muscle and brain following just 7 days of quercetin feedings. We did not measure protein concentration of PGC-1α or SIRT1; however, changes in mRNA of these factors generally reflect changes in protein and activity (13)."


    PB
     
    Adlyfrost, Valentijn, Emootje and 3 others like this.
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    PhoenixBurger
    How much quercetin do you take a day and how do you divide up the doses?
     
  3. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    It's such an individual thing. Quercetin did nothing for my PEM symptoms. Such an annoying problem and maybe we have a number of different causes for it?
     
  4. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    It never did anything for me, either, despite how much it's touted as a mast cell stabilizer and antioxidant. I always went in with high hopes and was always disappointed. I'd also like to know how much you take, though, PhoenixBurger. Maybe it requires megadosing?
     
  5. PhoenixBurger

    PhoenixBurger Senior Member

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    Also keep in mind I have no idea if I have what you guys have. Just a lot of similarities. I only take 250-500mg but its the "QUERCETONE" which is a water soluble version made by Thorne. Supposed to have better absorption.
     
  6. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    Both quercetin and quercetone have terrible effects on my sleep.
     
  7. PhoenixBurger

    PhoenixBurger Senior Member

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    The amounts they used in the study above were 12.5mg per kg and 25mg per kg.

    So that works out to about 1,000mg to 2,000mg for an adult male 190lbs.

    700mg - 1400mg for an adult female 130lbs
     
    MeSci likes this.
  8. Shoesies

    Shoesies Senior Member

    I actually have no certainty that quercetin has worked for me...my last relapse was so bad I threw everything and the kitchen sink at it. I am however, getting better. So, I plan to continue taking it. For what it is worth.
     
  9. FancyMyBlood

    FancyMyBlood Senior Member

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    It's much less actually. When translating an animal dose to a human equivalent dose (HED), you need to take into account the animal's body surface area. The entire HED formula is explained here: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/Guidances/UCM078932.pdf

    Since this study used mice the HED would translate to 12.5 x 0.08 -25 x 0.08= 1-2 mg/kg. Obviously this formula is just a starting point and the accuracy depends on a lot of factors.
     
    MeSci likes this.
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Glad it seems to have helped you, Shoesies. I think I'll give it a miss until I see a convincing study on my own species! Non-human-animal findings correlate extremely badly with human effects, so I tend to disregard animal studies to the extent that I don't even bother reading them unless it is necessary for work or campaigning.

    I think we can also put a little interpretation on the first phrase: "Quercetin is one of a broad group of natural polyphenolic flavonoid substances that are being investigated..."

    Pretty-well all plant material contains polyphenols, and we may be better off consuming a good variety of plant-based food.

    There is a very strong bias in medical research on identifying single compounds rather than looking at stuff holistically. This can start during science education, as I know from experience. I wanted to cite whole foods in my examinable components for a Master's module on molecules in medicine, but was not allowed to. I had instead to select a single molecular entity and describe its effects - on cancer in this instance.

    The reason for this reductionist tendency is likely to be that medical research is profit-driven. There are few profits to be made from extolling the curative properties of a food (unless it's a processed one!), but big potential profits to be made for a company that isolates, patents and promotes a product based on a single molecule.
     
  11. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Well, I find this interesting because Quercetin is one of the things that can seriously help with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome. Which many PWMEs have. I just keep forgetting to take it, so I dunno if it's helping or not :alien:
     
  12. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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  13. PhoenixBurger

    PhoenixBurger Senior Member

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    Disclaimer to everyone: I am no expert. And I don't know if I have CFS/ME ... I just have the mildest version of what you all have, and my symptoms are more heavily focused on muscle twitching everywhere. So please dont go jumping on Quercetin because of this thread. I'd let the smarter ones comment first Sushi heapsreal Valentijn Hip
     
  14. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi, the only problem I have with quercetin is that is it slows phase one liver detox. When I was taking it at "therapeutic doses" my phase one detox was at the lowest on the scale. I then looked up quercetin, and yes, it can do that. So if you want to slow down phase one, great. If it is too slow or mid-range, it might slow it even more.

    Otherwise I'd probably try it again, though I never really noticed much effect one way or the other.

    Sushi
     
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Quercetin also increases glutathione and has a positive effect on nitric oxide. In one of the glutathione studies they used different kinds of quercetin and the kind from onions worked the best, but maybe it was the sulphur in the onions that helped increase the glutathione rather than it being more bioavailable.

    One thing interesting about quercetin is that it's listed as a Th2 stimulant and yet it helps some people with allergies even though allergic reactions are thought to be Th2 immune responses.
     
    Adlyfrost likes this.
  16. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    @PhoenixBurger if Quercetin worked for you and your mitochondria issues have you ever tried PPQ ? It is supposed to be even better for mitochondria biogenesis.

    For most other pple with CFS and PEM it its RALA, ALCAR, Ubiquinol that should work. These are what I think most pple with the more common CFS respond to. I am curious to hear about those who do not respond to these supplements.
     
  17. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Assuming that RALA is R-Alpha Lipoic Acid, I have take all three together. They did not prevent my getting worse.
     
  18. viggster

    viggster

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    SickOfSickness likes this.
  19. PhoenixBurger

    PhoenixBurger Senior Member

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    I take CoQ10 and PQQ for mitochondrial biogenesis. And exercise which does it really really well. Quercetin is off my list of supps now, as I have strange reactions to it now. I get stabbing pain in my ear .... of all things... lol
     
  20. alwayshopeful

    alwayshopeful

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    Ok, just have to run this one by you smart people.

    I was taking some adrenal support and added LDN. Resulted in all-over body itch and constant high pulse...as in, 150 after a shower and resting rate never lower than high 90s.

    Had to do something about the itch, researched and came up with quercetin. It totally stopped the itch. And I noticed a nice drop in heart rate after taking it. My quercetin also contains calcium, which I never supplement and don't get much through food.

    So the next morning, noticing high heart rate, I supplemented 500mg calcium. Sure enough, resting rate back to high 70s! So I have continued this every day (quercetin and extra calcium) and have had some good energy levels and feeling better in general.

    Also noticed better sleep when taking the quercetin early evening (always a plus for me).

    So I guess I need the calcium. There are so many conflicting studies about calcium, I just don't know if I should continue it indefinitely. Just wondered if any else needs extra calcium or has had good results with quercetin?
     

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