Quatrefolic Methylfolate - Best Brand (?)

[Lotus97]

Is it possible that a methylation defect is attacking your immune system and preventing your body from fighting off Lyme? My wife had all kinds of infections that were cleared up with methylation supplements.

Rich actually wrote a paper on Lyme and methylation in 2009. He was also going to speak at a conference in late 2012, but he died before that so I don't know if he revised anything. From talking to other people he believed that methylation would be better to do first and I agree. Treating Lyme with antibiotics is really hard on the body. I think methylation would be helpful to strengthen the body before the treatment. I started a thread on it on some people with Lyme have posted their experiences with methylation.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...glutathione-depletion-rich-vanks-posts.21563/

A link has been hypothesized between Lyme disease and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). This link is based on the Glutathione DepletionMethylation Cycle Block (GD-MCB) hypothesis for CFS [6]. The GD-MCB hypothesis proposes that in a person who is genomically predisposed, stressors that place demands on glutathione can cause it to become depleted, and can lead to a partial block in the methylation cycle. The resulting vicious circle interaction maintains CFS as a chronic condition. The present paper suggests that Lyme disease is one of the stressors that can produce this vicious circle interaction in the body of a person who is genomically predisposed. It is suggested that this leads to chronic Lyme disease. If the Borrelia bacteria are subsequently eliminated by treatment, the patient then has post-Lyme disease syndrome. Post-Lyme disease syndrome is one of the post-infective fatigue syndromes, a category of disorders within chronic fatigue syndrome [25]. A commercial test panel is available to test this hypothesis [26], and treatment to lift the methylation cycle block and to restore glutathione is available [7] if these are found to be present.

 

[Lotus97]

I think my reaction to the methylfolate might have been caused by the Methyl Trap. Someone explained it to me in another thread. I think the term "block" is what confused me since I seemed to react to the methylfolate I didn't think folic acid was blocking it. This is still only a working hypothesis, but I can test it out by eliminating folic acid. I get plenty of folate from my food so I won't add methylfolate or even folinic acid right away. I don't think folinic acid is a problem for most people so I'm not concerned.

DHFR is one of the enzyme's responsible for converting folic acid to active forms of folate. Methylfolate is not the only active form of folate. Because folic acid does not occur in nature, our bodies are not designed to process it. When the cellular machinery in the mitochondria are using up energy and equipment to process folic acid, it prevents the proper metabolism of other forms of folate, so if you have too much folic acid circulating, any extra methylfolate will saturate the cellls and also build up in the blood (outside the cells), most of it will do nothing and get excreted, but some of it will speed up other processes and make you feel sick. So it's not really correct to say that folic acid blocks methylfolate, but it's a good enough analogy for most people to understand. Too much folic acid prevents the natural/active forms of folate from accessing the parts of the machine that make our cells work correctly, and forces folate into other biochemical pathways that are not necessarily contributing to anything useful and can make you feel worse.

 

[Victronix]

Before that connection was made timing was important to many, in that the B-Right needed to be taken 12 hours off from methylfolate. Until someone figured it out.

Is there any estimate on how many people have this effect, paradoxical deficiency? What are the chances? Is there a genetic mix that has been found to be more likely to have the interaction with folic acid? If there's a good thread someone knows of offhand, can you post the link or just the title? Thanks!

 

[Freddd]

Before that connection was made timing was important to many, in that the B-Right needed to be taken 12 hours off from methylfolate. Until someone figured it out.

Is there any estimate on how many people have this effect, paradoxical deficiency? What are the chances? Is there a genetic mix that has been found to be more likely to have the interaction with folic acid? If there's a good thread someone knows of offhand, can you post the link or just the title? Thanks!

Hi Victronix,

I wish it were that simple. I think that FMS/CFS/ME is kind of a concentrator for paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency. I described 3 or 4 forms and causes of it; folic acid, folinic-acid/veggie-folate, larger dose of any of the above, induced donut hole folate insufficiency by starting healing requiring more than the available amount of L-methylfolate than can be delivered when needed. It is often a temporary insufficiency.

It is known 20% or so can't utilize folic acid at all. Another 30% can't use it up to the biological channel maximum, 800-1000mcg. About 50% can use it to that biological ceiling of 800-1000mcg which means that if a person needs 3200 mcg for widespread healing they might get folate insufficiency symptoms. What I have seen is that people who don't have a startup response to active b12s and folate don't develop donut hole insufficiency or low potassium. However, some folks have lifelong paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency and some only develop it after folic acid exposure or it worsens then.

What all this means for population wide paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency rate I have no idea. Of the people in the FMS/ME/CFS/SACD/MS contingents I would expect a large percentage of this population to have one or more forms of the folate problem.

 

[Red04]

http://chriskresser.com/folate-vs-folic-acid

http://mthfr.net/folic-acid-fortification-increase-in-mthfr-and-rise-in-autism/2012/05/11/

I generally think supplementing or taking folic acid is a bad idea and don't see much use for it. It's added into just about anything you eat though. I think it makes too much sense that we are poisoning the population with the huge "gluten free" movement, the rise in autism, the depression and anxiety in all the children, the school shootings, the CFS epedimic. Until someone proves that folic acid is NOT causing all these things, I think this should be the default belief.

As far as percentages and people go, I think there would have to be a greater acceptance of that belief before we could get reliable statistics. But, I don't think it's a rare condition.

Maybe we will get some money behind this with the large companies taking notice: http://www.nutraingredients.com/Industry/Nestle-buys-Louisiana-depression-food-firm

 

[alice]

Before that connection was made timing was important to many, in that the B-Right needed to be taken 12 hours off from methylfolate. Until someone figured it out.

Victronix - where can I read more about taking B-Complex (B-Right) supplement 12 hours away from methylfolate. I have been taking my B-complex at same time as methylfolate. I guess that's not a good idea?

I then take folinic acid (not folic acid) at another meal. Thanks.
alice

 

[Freddd]

I then take folinic acid (not folic acid) at another meal. Thanks.

Hi Alice,

If a person has folinic acid problems as I do then folinic is worse than folic acid. It has a longer halflife and it took me 3 days of clearance before the l-methylfolate could be effective. I don't know any way to test for what a person can use with the various folates except to try comparative trials of one at a tome and then the combination in use. A comparative test of ONLY methylfolate. All I know is that people that take folinic acid and/or folic acid with their methylfolate on the average have a lot more problems than those who take l-methylfolate only. Many have no problem with those at all. However, as the results of folic and folinic are so often "detox", which with all the overlapping and mutually contradictory definitions of "detox" that doesn't tell what is happening. That can be determined only by doing A-B trials that I know of. So far the genetic data interpretations are not known that will unravel this though with enough people solving the cause of THEIR "detox" in relationship with folate and b12.

The trials I propose can be done sometimes in a few days to weeks with the folates and then one KNOWS how they react. It's amazing how many people clear it pout only to continue having problems and finding "hidden" sources in some of the big mixture items, energy drinks, vitamin drinks, protein drinks, green drinks etc. In a way, eliminating these folates is another kind of elimination diet to try to find the problem. Once you get a good elimination trial going answers can come very quickly. I managed to get CNS healing started for only the second time by going back to the basics and retitrating all the critical factors. I got rid of interfering factors that sometimes accumulate. One person found her selection of herbs was a problem for reasons I am unclear on but it worked.

 

[Victronix]

One part I forgot to mention is that when I was getting more methyl-folate (by spacing out the Vit C), and when I wasn't wiped out by the side effects, I had amazing euphoria.

It was wonderful, probably on par with what I got when I first started methyl B-12, although with that I was feeling loving and social, socially focused. With this type of euphoria, it wasn't necessarily social -- I could look at someone, or the sky, and just feel incredible contentment, that if life were to come to an end at that moment, it couldn't have gotten any better than that, a sort of "isn't everything just wonderful? isn't life amazing?" kind feeling, that is pervasive in a subtle way, and peaking every now and then when something outside of the perception itself is really positive. When I would think of the future, it seemed that wonderful things were possible and it was something to look forward to.

In normal life I'm typically very negatively biased, a worrier, tending to see the worst, or plan for the worst case scenario, in everything. I take 5-HTP and that's helped immensely. But it would be amazing if methyl-folate, or whatever it is I'm experiencing in those euphoric states, could touch that negativity.

 

[Victronix]

Here is the post I was referring to:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...fs-patients-plus-biomarker.21745/#post-333382

I don't know about folinic acid. but vitamin C co-administered destabilizes L-5mthf in the gut. The time window is about 20-30 minutes. So it is easy to hold off on that orange juice or vitamin C tablet. I ironically discovered this the hard way and then verified it on the Internet. Ironically my Mom who I got to take FolaPro some time ago was taking it with 1 gram of vitamin C every day. When she learned from me about the vitamin C issues, she initially just nonchalantly shifted the vitamin C to the afternoon .... and within a day or two basically flipped out since suddenly she was absorbing much more.

You can find discussions of this on other forums including mthfr.net. There was a research paper talking about this that I read once, but my bookmarks folder is so huge and disorganized that it might as well be buried in the Triassic period, sorry.

 

[Freddd]

One part I forgot to mention is that when I was getting more methyl-folate (by spacing out the Vit C), and when I wasn't wiped out by the side effects, I had amazing euphoria.

It was wonderful, probably on par with what I got when I first started methyl B-12, although with that I was feeling loving and social, socially focused. With this type of euphoria, it wasn't necessarily social -- I could look at someone, or the sky, and just feel incredible contentment, that if life were to come to an end at that moment, it couldn't have gotten any better than that, a sort of "isn't everything just wonderful? isn't life amazing?" kind feeling, that is pervasive in a subtle way, and peaking every now and then when something outside of the perception itself is really positive. When I would think of the future, it seemed that wonderful things were possible and it was something to look forward to.

In normal life I'm typically very negatively biased, a worrier, tending to see the worst, or plan for the worst case scenario, in everything. I take 5-HTP and that's helped immensely. But it would be amazing if methyl-folate, or whatever it is I'm experiencing in those euphoric states, could touch that negativity.

Hi Victronix,


It was wonderful, probably on par with what I got when I first started methyl B-12, although with that I was feeling loving and social, socially focused.

On certain kinds of spiritual websites MeCbl is called "the connection vitamin". It's in the "Tantric" meal, which in a vegetarian society that can produce such amazing results that it was considered magical by overturning dietary taboos.. It contained the Deadlock Quartet plus a whole lot more in a society starving near to death for MeCbl and AdoCbl, and perhaps methylfolate and carnitine, generally.

With this type of euphoria, it wasn't necessarily social -- I could look at someone, or the sky, and just feel incredible contentment, that if life were to come to an end at that moment, it couldn't have gotten any better than that, a sort of "isn't everything just wonderful? isn't life amazing?" kind feeling, that is pervasive in a subtle way, and peaking every now and then when something outside of the perception itself is really positive

I found the euphoric period a time, about 8 months, of extremely rapid healing including most of the CNS except for the SACD damage. Mood and personality changes were massive over the next year, in a good way. A lifetime depression relieved in multiple layers over a 6 year period. The lights came on including the visual perception brightening by 2 stops (4x). Each time that turned on I had a round of CNS changes; memory, cognitive, mood, personality, multisensory hallucinations (not delusions, smells, tastes, things seen, heard, felt) and just about everything. Most of that while the SACD continued to do demyelination in multiple areas. This was before the AdoCbl the first year. This layer didn't get healing turned on until 7.5mg injections some years in. I did the titration with sublinguals first.

It appears that a substantial portion of the people in the MeCbl/L-methylfolate CNS deficiencies, such as seen in SACD and MS direction, tends to be more euphoric. Those in the AdoCbl/l-carnitine direction appear to have more of a tendency to have a fear, anxiety, panic, rage, severe depression type reaction. There are other modes of response as well.

What took you out of it?

These Deadlock Quartet have a huge effect on neurophysiological psychology. Depression is an extremely frequent symptom of folate/MeCbl/AdoCbl. There are a lot of various personality changes that occur as well in deficiency that are functional and can change dramatically. After the euphoria emotions can get volatile as things come back on line and adjustments have to me made fairly quickly for perhaps 6 months for each round. It seems to come in batches.. At some point it becomes clear that what used to change each 5 days is later taking 10 or 20 days and then longer. As momentum is lost accelerated healing ends

The exact nature of the euphoric response can vary considerably and may not repeat exactly. From a different viewpoint I would suggest that the neurologic states that produce these moods can be learned and a lot retained if not dragged down by habit.

 

[Lotus97]

It would be good to know which brands have which potency. Many people take additional methylfolate in multivitamins and b complexes and/or the might not want the additives from Solgar's Metafolin so people can adjust their dose accordingly based on the varying potency of brands. According to this chart, Metafolin and Extrafolate-S are the best brands of methylfolate, after that is Quatrefolic, and then last is the generic/racemic methylfolate. I hope someone who has more time/brainpower to doublecheck that the information is accurate.
http://www.methyl-life.com/methylfolate-types.html

 

[Lotus97]

I found out that the methylfolate in Thorne's b complexes, multis, and methyl guard is the same as Quatrefolic, but their standalone 1 mg and 5 mg methylfolate supplements use Gnosis' Extrafolate methylfolate (as potent as Metafolin according to the chart I posted). Thorne's 1 mg MTHF is around the same price as Metagenics' Folapro (Metafolin), but Solgar's Metafolin is a better value (for those that don't mind the sugar alcohols). I don't know if Thorne's 5 mg is a better value for those who need a high dose. Metabolic Maintenance also sells Quatrefolic in 10 mg. With the higher doses, a person might want to check if their insurance covers MetaNX or Deplin (prescription methylfolate).
UPDATE: See link TomS provided in post below this one

 

[TomS]

A word of warning with regard to Extrafolate in case you haven't read this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-thorne-misinformation-and-mislabeling.22529/

 

[Mercy]

Most people eliminated B-Right once the folic acid "revelation" was made. Which was that folic acid was blocking methylfolate and causing a paradoxical folate deficiency. I think Rich did and many others have adopted this to be true. Before that connection was made timing was important to many, in that the B-Right needed to be taken 12 hours off from methylfolate. Until someone figured it out.

This is new to me and the first I have heard that B-Right was problematic. I am just beginning to deal with this issue and have found myself overwhelmed. I have been taking methylcobalamin that also contains folate as folinic acid. I assume from what you have said that this is a problem? I had thought I would take the plunge and follow Fredd's protocol, but now I am not sure about the B-Right. Do you have a recommendation for alternate brands? Thanks.

 

[Lotus97]

This is new to me and the first I have heard that B-Right was problematic. I am just beginning to deal with this issue and have found myself overwhelmed. I have been taking methylcobalamin that also contains folate as folinic acid. I assume from what you have said that this is a problem? I had thought I would take the plunge and follow Fredd's protocol, but now I am not sure about the B-Right. Do you have a recommendation for alternate brands? Thanks.

Folinic acid (or calcium folinate) is different than folic acid. Some people do seem to have a problem with folinic acid, but it hasn't been established that this is a widespread issue. There's more information in this thread about possible folinic intolerance:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...d-intolerance-request-for-genetic-data.19168/
This is from Rich about folinic acid:

Folinic acid is a buffer or storage form of folate that can be converted to other forms readily in most people.
The reason for including it in the simplified methylation protocol is that it can supply forms of folate needed to make new RNA and DNA while the methionine synthase enzyme is still running its reaction slowly. This reaction is fed directly by methylfolate, but until it goes through the reaction to produce tetrahydrofolate, it can't be used for forming other folates.

In order to use folinic acid a person must have a normally functioning MTHFS enzyme (not the same as MTHFR). If this enzyme is slow for genetic reasons, folinic acid can build up. and that will inhibit the SHMT reaction, which in turn will inhibit the normal production of MTHF, which in turn will hinder formation of DNA and formation of methylfolate.

According to Freddd, he cannot tolerate folinic acid, and there seem to be some others who can't, also. It would be helpful to pin down what SNP or SNPs are responsible for this.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Mercy]

Folinic acid (or calcium folinate) is different than folic acid. Some people do seem to have a problem with folinic acid, but it hasn't been established that this is a widespread issue. There's more information in this thread about possible folinic intolerance:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...d-intolerance-request-for-genetic-data.19168/
This is from Rich about folinic acid:

Thanks so much, Lotus. There is so much to figure out and I appreciate the help.

 

[Lotus97]

A word of warning with regard to Extrafolate in case you haven't read this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-thorne-misinformation-and-mislabeling.22529/

The Extrafolate in Thorne's is Extrafolate-S (not Extrafolate which is the racemic one) so it shouldn't be a problem. Solgar's Metafolin is the best priced however so I don't see any reason not to take that. Thorne does sell a 5 mg one which might be convenient those needing a higher dose, but if anyone needs something that high they could get a prescription for Metanx or Deplin (not sure how those are priced though).