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Quatrefolic Methylfolate - Best Brand (?)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Lotus97, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Rich actually wrote a paper on Lyme and methylation in 2009. He was also going to speak at a conference in late 2012, but he died before that so I don't know if he revised anything. From talking to other people he believed that methylation would be better to do first and I agree. Treating Lyme with antibiotics is really hard on the body. I think methylation would be helpful to strengthen the body before the treatment. I started a thread on it on some people with Lyme have posted their experiences with methylation.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...glutathione-depletion-rich-vanks-posts.21563/
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I think my reaction to the methylfolate might have been caused by the Methyl Trap. Someone explained it to me in another thread. I think the term "block" is what confused me since I seemed to react to the methylfolate I didn't think folic acid was blocking it. This is still only a working hypothesis, but I can test it out by eliminating folic acid. I get plenty of folate from my food so I won't add methylfolate or even folinic acid right away. I don't think folinic acid is a problem for most people so I'm not concerned.
  3. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Before that connection was made timing was important to many, in that the B-Right needed to be taken 12 hours off from methylfolate. Until someone figured it out.

    Is there any estimate on how many people have this effect, paradoxical deficiency? What are the chances? Is there a genetic mix that has been found to be more likely to have the interaction with folic acid? If there's a good thread someone knows of offhand, can you post the link or just the title? Thanks!
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Victronix,

    I wish it were that simple. I think that FMS/CFS/ME is kind of a concentrator for paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency. I described 3 or 4 forms and causes of it; folic acid, folinic-acid/veggie-folate, larger dose of any of the above, induced donut hole folate insufficiency by starting healing requiring more than the available amount of L-methylfolate than can be delivered when needed. It is often a temporary insufficiency.

    It is known 20% or so can't utilize folic acid at all. Another 30% can't use it up to the biological channel maximum, 800-1000mcg. About 50% can use it to that biological ceiling of 800-1000mcg which means that if a person needs 3200 mcg for widespread healing they might get folate insufficiency symptoms. What I have seen is that people who don't have a startup response to active b12s and folate don't develop donut hole insufficiency or low potassium. However, some folks have lifelong paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency and some only develop it after folic acid exposure or it worsens then.

    What all this means for population wide paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency rate I have no idea. Of the people in the FMS/ME/CFS/SACD/MS contingents I would expect a large percentage of this population to have one or more forms of the folate problem.
  5. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    http://chriskresser.com/folate-vs-folic-acid

    http://mthfr.net/folic-acid-fortification-increase-in-mthfr-and-rise-in-autism/2012/05/11/

    I generally think supplementing or taking folic acid is a bad idea and don't see much use for it. It's added into just about anything you eat though. I think it makes too much sense that we are poisoning the population with the huge "gluten free" movement, the rise in autism, the depression and anxiety in all the children, the school shootings, the CFS epedimic. Until someone proves that folic acid is NOT causing all these things, I think this should be the default belief.

    As far as percentages and people go, I think there would have to be a greater acceptance of that belief before we could get reliable statistics. But, I don't think it's a rare condition.

    Maybe we will get some money behind this with the large companies taking notice: http://www.nutraingredients.com/Industry/Nestle-buys-Louisiana-depression-food-firm
    cph13 likes this.
  6. alice

    alice Senior Member

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  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Alice,

    If a person has folinic acid problems as I do then folinic is worse than folic acid. It has a longer halflife and it took me 3 days of clearance before the l-methylfolate could be effective. I don't know any way to test for what a person can use with the various folates except to try comparative trials of one at a tome and then the combination in use. A comparative test of ONLY methylfolate. All I know is that people that take folinic acid and/or folic acid with their methylfolate on the average have a lot more problems than those who take l-methylfolate only. Many have no problem with those at all. However, as the results of folic and folinic are so often "detox", which with all the overlapping and mutually contradictory definitions of "detox" that doesn't tell what is happening. That can be determined only by doing A-B trials that I know of. So far the genetic data interpretations are not known that will unravel this though with enough people solving the cause of THEIR "detox" in relationship with folate and b12.

    The trials I propose can be done sometimes in a few days to weeks with the folates and then one KNOWS how they react. It's amazing how many people clear it pout only to continue having problems and finding "hidden" sources in some of the big mixture items, energy drinks, vitamin drinks, protein drinks, green drinks etc. In a way, eliminating these folates is another kind of elimination diet to try to find the problem. Once you get a good elimination trial going answers can come very quickly. I managed to get CNS healing started for only the second time by going back to the basics and retitrating all the critical factors. I got rid of interfering factors that sometimes accumulate. One person found her selection of herbs was a problem for reasons I am unclear on but it worked.
    alice likes this.
  8. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    One part I forgot to mention is that when I was getting more methyl-folate (by spacing out the Vit C), and when I wasn't wiped out by the side effects, I had amazing euphoria.

    It was wonderful, probably on par with what I got when I first started methyl B-12, although with that I was feeling loving and social, socially focused. With this type of euphoria, it wasn't necessarily social -- I could look at someone, or the sky, and just feel incredible contentment, that if life were to come to an end at that moment, it couldn't have gotten any better than that, a sort of "isn't everything just wonderful? isn't life amazing?" kind feeling, that is pervasive in a subtle way, and peaking every now and then when something outside of the perception itself is really positive. When I would think of the future, it seemed that wonderful things were possible and it was something to look forward to.

    In normal life I'm typically very negatively biased, a worrier, tending to see the worst, or plan for the worst case scenario, in everything. I take 5-HTP and that's helped immensely. But it would be amazing if methyl-folate, or whatever it is I'm experiencing in those euphoric states, could touch that negativity.
    Rolo likes this.
  9. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Here is the post I was referring to:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...fs-patients-plus-biomarker.21745/#post-333382

  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Victronix,


    It was wonderful, probably on par with what I got when I first started methyl B-12, although with that I was feeling loving and social, socially focused.

    On certain kinds of spiritual websites MeCbl is called "the connection vitamin". It's in the "Tantric" meal, which in a vegetarian society that can produce such amazing results that it was considered magical by overturning dietary taboos.. It contained the Deadlock Quartet plus a whole lot more in a society starving near to death for MeCbl and AdoCbl, and perhaps methylfolate and carnitine, generally.

    With this type of euphoria, it wasn't necessarily social -- I could look at someone, or the sky, and just feel incredible contentment, that if life were to come to an end at that moment, it couldn't have gotten any better than that, a sort of "isn't everything just wonderful? isn't life amazing?" kind feeling, that is pervasive in a subtle way, and peaking every now and then when something outside of the perception itself is really positive

    I found the euphoric period a time, about 8 months, of extremely rapid healing including most of the CNS except for the SACD damage. Mood and personality changes were massive over the next year, in a good way. A lifetime depression relieved in multiple layers over a 6 year period. The lights came on including the visual perception brightening by 2 stops (4x). Each time that turned on I had a round of CNS changes; memory, cognitive, mood, personality, multisensory hallucinations (not delusions, smells, tastes, things seen, heard, felt) and just about everything. Most of that while the SACD continued to do demyelination in multiple areas. This was before the AdoCbl the first year. This layer didn't get healing turned on until 7.5mg injections some years in. I did the titration with sublinguals first.

    It appears that a substantial portion of the people in the MeCbl/L-methylfolate CNS deficiencies, such as seen in SACD and MS direction, tends to be more euphoric. Those in the AdoCbl/l-carnitine direction appear to have more of a tendency to have a fear, anxiety, panic, rage, severe depression type reaction. There are other modes of response as well.

    What took you out of it?

    These Deadlock Quartet have a huge effect on neurophysiological psychology. Depression is an extremely frequent symptom of folate/MeCbl/AdoCbl. There are a lot of various personality changes that occur as well in deficiency that are functional and can change dramatically. After the euphoria emotions can get volatile as things come back on line and adjustments have to me made fairly quickly for perhaps 6 months for each round. It seems to come in batches.. At some point it becomes clear that what used to change each 5 days is later taking 10 or 20 days and then longer. As momentum is lost accelerated healing ends

    The exact nature of the euphoric response can vary considerably and may not repeat exactly. From a different viewpoint I would suggest that the neurologic states that produce these moods can be learned and a lot retained if not dragged down by habit.
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    It would be good to know which brands have which potency. Many people take additional methylfolate in multivitamins and b complexes and/or the might not want the additives from Solgar's Metafolin so people can adjust their dose accordingly based on the varying potency of brands. According to this chart, Metafolin and Extrafolate-S are the best brands of methylfolate, after that is Quatrefolic, and then last is the generic/racemic methylfolate. I hope someone who has more time/brainpower to doublecheck that the information is accurate.
    http://www.methyl-life.com/methylfolate-types.html
    [​IMG]
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I found out that the methylfolate in Thorne's b complexes, multis, and methyl guard is the same as Quatrefolic, but their standalone 1 mg and 5 mg methylfolate supplements use Gnosis' Extrafolate methylfolate (as potent as Metafolin according to the chart I posted). Thorne's 1 mg MTHF is around the same price as Metagenics' Folapro (Metafolin), but Solgar's Metafolin is a better value (for those that don't mind the sugar alcohols). I don't know if Thorne's 5 mg is a better value for those who need a high dose. Metabolic Maintenance also sells Quatrefolic in 10 mg. With the higher doses, a person might want to check if their insurance covers MetaNX or Deplin (prescription methylfolate).
    UPDATE: See link TomS provided in post below this one
  13. TomS

    TomS

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    Lotus97 and Valentijn like this.
  14. Mercy

    Mercy

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    This is new to me and the first I have heard that B-Right was problematic. I am just beginning to deal with this issue and have found myself overwhelmed. I have been taking methylcobalamin that also contains folate as folinic acid. I assume from what you have said that this is a problem? I had thought I would take the plunge and follow Fredd's protocol, but now I am not sure about the B-Right. Do you have a recommendation for alternate brands? Thanks.
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Folinic acid (or calcium folinate) is different than folic acid. Some people do seem to have a problem with folinic acid, but it hasn't been established that this is a widespread issue. There's more information in this thread about possible folinic intolerance:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...d-intolerance-request-for-genetic-data.19168/
    This is from Rich about folinic acid:
  16. Mercy

    Mercy

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    Thanks so much, Lotus. There is so much to figure out and I appreciate the help.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    The Extrafolate in Thorne's is Extrafolate-S (not Extrafolate which is the racemic one) so it shouldn't be a problem. Solgar's Metafolin is the best priced however so I don't see any reason not to take that. Thorne does sell a 5 mg one which might be convenient those needing a higher dose, but if anyone needs something that high they could get a prescription for Metanx or Deplin (not sure how those are priced though).

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