Phoenix Rising supports the Millions Missing global day of protest
Phoenix Rising is delighted to support the demands being made in the ME/CFS community’s first-ever global day of protest …
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Psychological factors and IBS

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by MeSci, Sep 5, 2015.

  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

    Messages:
    7,969
    Likes:
    12,815
    Cornwall, UK
    This paper claims to support causation being psychological, but I tend to think the reverse in at least many cases - gut dysbiosis causing psychological disturbances, notably anxiety and depression. This can occur through the tryptophan pathway switching to producing kynurenine, for example.

    Again, I don't have time to read the paper, and can't access the full text, but would be interested in what others think. I know that @alex3619 is interested in this issue. I suspect that @Jonathan Edwards will take issue with the claim "stress affects the immune system."

    (Edited to add link!)
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2015
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,524
    Likes:
    35,228
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Abstract or article link? I realize its not the full paper.
     
    MeSci likes this.
  3. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

    Messages:
    5,247
    Likes:
    31,978
    My 'functional bowel problem' does not seem to have anything to do with psychological factors. It just wakes me up in the night feeling dreadful. When I am worrying during the day I feel fine.

    But we do need an abstract MeSci!!
     
    Hutan, dancer, aimossy and 1 other person like this.
  4. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,750
    Likes:
    23,190
    These articles are usually predictable: "we found a correlation between psychological factors and disease, and therefore the psychological factors are causing the disease". Alternative explanations or concrete evidence will be absent.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2015
    SOC, Kyla, worldbackwards and 6 others like this.
  5. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

    Messages:
    7,969
    Likes:
    12,815
    Cornwall, UK
    Sorry, folks - link now added!
     
    alex3619 likes this.
  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

    Messages:
    5,247
    Likes:
    31,978
    On the nail A.B.
     
    MeSci likes this.
  7. user9876

    user9876 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,584
    Likes:
    18,184

    There is often an additional problem. They way they assess psychological factors is through a questionnaire but the question answers could sometimes follow from disability rather than from psychological problems.

    So in any work like this they should carefully justify that questions and answers are independent from the effects of the other problems they are talking about. However, they normally don't look at the actual questions but hide behind a 'scale' name.
     
    Valentijn and MeSci like this.
  8. Hutan

    Hutan Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,069
    Likes:
    6,431
    New Zealand
    Some of you might be interested in this radio item from Australia's Radio National on the gut problems causing psychiatric problems.

    http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programitem/pez4DqMobD?play=true

    There's a transcript too.
     
    ahmo and MeSci like this.
  9. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,750
    Likes:
    23,190
    Another problem here is that people were assessed during the outbreak, not before. This means that people had already come into contact with the pathogens.

    Maybe the anxiety was simply the symptoms of exposure, and the IBS the long term consequences? There is certainly no shortage of patients who say that changes in gut health result in surprising changes in mental and emotional health.

    Another explanation along the same line is that the people with anxiety already had some gut problems, which got worse due to the outbreak.

    Just to add some alternative explanations to the discussion.
     
    MeSci and Snowdrop like this.
  10. Hutan

    Hutan Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,069
    Likes:
    6,431
    New Zealand
    While you are at Radio National, there's another item on gut flora that is interesting.
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bodysphere/your-microbial-body/6722600#transcript

     
    MeSci likes this.
  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

    Messages:
    7,969
    Likes:
    12,815
    Cornwall, UK
    Myself included. Been anxious for most of my life. Changed my diet in my late 50s, added some supplements, gut function improved dramatically, as did sleep, and anxiety decreased significantly. Whenever my gut gets messed up again, mood, sleep, skin, sinuses and other things take a turn for the worse.
     
    Hutan, PeterPositive and jimells like this.
  12. jimells

    jimells Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,001
    Likes:
    6,115
    northern Maine
    Is there evidence for any of this? As I understand it, there is no evidence for the "Serotonin DeficiencyTheory" of depression and that it is actually a marketing story to sell drugs that barely work better than placebos. So that kinda blows a hole in the bacteria -> inflammation -> serotonin deficiency -> depression theory.

    I have no opinion or knowledge of bacteria causing/ not causing depression, but here they are building on a foundation of beach sand.
     
    Chrisb and Effi like this.
  13. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

    Messages:
    7,969
    Likes:
    12,815
    Cornwall, UK
    Serotonin may be a red herring, as other things are affected too. See this quote from this paper:
    TRP = tryptophan and KYN = kynurenine.

    Although the source paper for that quote is about people with HCV receiving interferon-alpha, the source of the quoted info (reference 4 cited above) is more generally about the serotonin-kynurenine hypothesis of depression.

    The first paper also states that indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase (IDO) is even more strongly activated by interferon-gamma, which was found by Hornig and Lipkin to be high in the first 3 years of ME/CFS. It also says that IDO is
    the rate-limiting enzyme of TRP conversion into kynurenine.

    So more interferon = more IDO = more kynurenine = possibly an increase in depression risk.


    EDIT

    It was interest in this issue that led me to start this poll, but it hasn't supported my hypothesis! Maybe poorly worded/controlled/not enough participants.
     
    jimells and Hutan like this.
  14. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,524
    Likes:
    35,228
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Actually its very clear that replacing serotonin does not remove depression. Pharmacologists knew this in the 80s. It is very much a marketing ploy.

    The first part of the issue is that Selective SRIs are NOT selective by biochemical criteria. That's marketing hype. What is the case is they were designed to be a bit more selective than the previous generation of drugs.

    When I was learning the pharmacology of SSRIs, circa 2001, nearly all of which I have forgotten, it was pointed out they knew that the serotonin reuptake was not why these drugs could work. It restores serotonin levels in hours, but depression takes weeks to resolve. Other candidate drugs, which were highly selective under biochemical criteria, failed. What we did not know is whether or not the serotonin might have been important in conjunction with a second mechanism induced by the drugs.

    The more biochemically selective the drug, the less it worked. These more effective serotonin restoring drugs never made it to market.

    This is quite aside from the growing evidence that for most patients, most of the time, SSRIs are a placebo. Its a minority of patients with very severe depression who respond best, and massively increase the effect size in studies. Its a subgroup.

    This does not mean, however, that other mechanisms are not at work. It just means that serotonin, by itself, will not resolve depression. Other things, other pathways, may have an effect though, the science is just not evolved enough.
     
    MeSci, Valentijn, A.B. and 2 others like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page