Psychiatrists -- People with authority and PACE.

[mango]

Son of PACE should come out quite soon. What we've learnt form PACE will be useful. Given similarity in design.

Does this mean that there's another large scale CBT/GET trial in the works? Bloody hell...

Yep. And the CBT fanclub are now focusing more on views about activity and other aspects of cognition and personality as predisposing and perpetuating CFS. It's been referred to in various papers and now seen more detail. This is when I recall there are epidemics of ME. Can't see how personality predisposed them to get infected. My fault.

i can't help feeling like this left me with a lot of unanswered questions...

does anybody know more about it? perhaps @charles shepherd ?

 

[Scarecrow]

i can't help feeling like this left me with a lot of unanswered questions...

does anybody know more about it? perhaps @charles shepherd ?

I know what you mean.

Who are the 'son of PACE' investigators?

Take a guess and may the first guess be right. Who would be interested in expanding CBT and GET in the UK? You need a sense of humour here. Just saw latest instalment of FINE work. I'm pacing so decided not to go beyond abstract.

I'm not sure why I couldn't get a straight answer to a straight question.

Alison Wearden (FINE) is, I think, still the Assistant Chair of BACME. So I assume 'son of PACE' is supposed to be a reference to FINE.

 

[Snow Leopard]

"Son of PACE" is the GETSET trial?

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ite-at-it-again-now-its-a-getset-trial.15619/

 

[Scarecrow]

"Son of PACE" is the GETSET trial?

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ite-at-it-again-now-its-a-getset-trial.15619/

That seems more likely. A self-help booklet. Genius.

 

[worldbackwards]

Son of PACE" is the GETSET trial

They can't help themselves with the sporty (non)acronyms can they. You can sense how much they enjoy irritating us. It's all in the details.

A self-help booklet. Genius.

Cheap and useless. Both the major priorities in one handy treatment.

 

[mango]

"Son of PACE" is the GETSET trial?

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ite-at-it-again-now-its-a-getset-trial.15619/

it does seem likely, yes

On 30/07/2015 the overall trial end date was changed from 31/03/2014 to 01/12/2015.

http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN22975026

 

[Large Donner]

Are you allowed to agree CBT is a complete waste of everybodys time?

Its useful paid time for CBT "experts" courtesy of tax payers money, without NHS contracts like this they would be sitting in a room with two chairs talking to themselves because no one would pay for this shit.

Their job is to tick boxes after six sessions to create statistical cures for NHS management, who then continue to receive funding from the government based on their self assessed "success" which also helps the government to make allsorts of bullshit claims about successful healthcare.

Its a nice back scratching exercise so theres no incentive for it ever to be change.

 

[Large Donner]

Actually, when you talk to the patients, the vast majority speak highly of the staff. In all my years, I've heard nothing bad about the therapists and read about only one negative report re Prof. White. I don't know of any official complaints. As an old patient at Barts, I would have heard rumours of brainwashing. I've talked to enough patients (I was one and we swapped notes).

Are you talking about psychic mediums they get similar feedback often, it don't mean there's any truth in what they claim or that they are not full of it.

There is no brainwashing involved in CBT. You are offered a different explanation for your symptoms

And what exactly qualifies them to do that?

 

[Large Donner]

Pretty standard. I saw her tweet a few weeks ago that patients were responsible for PACE not being refuted properly and asking where were all the patient scientists who should have done this. When a few people naturally protested she started playing the victim and blocked everyone. I'd show you the tweet but...

This is pretty standard its not the first time shes done stuff like this. One time she got mad
at people who refuted her claim that she invented pacing.

Well I invented eating and my sister invented peeing.

 

[Large Donner]

That seems more likely. A self-help booklet. Genius.

These damn psychs cant define anything correctly can they. Even though it would be useless, a self help booklet by definition is not self help its help.

 

[TiredSam]

I really am ready to let this whole EG thing go, but for those who are interested in how we are being portrayed on Twitter, here's a conversation that EG has just had with herself:

For the record I don't have a Twitter account, EB's account is unprotected again so anyone can read it. The other tweets seem to have been deleted. Posting something then deleting / changing it once everyone has read the original is something she also did a few times here.

 

[Sidereal]

This is why it's important to take screenshots of things like this when they pop up.

 

[adreno]

here's a conversation that EG has just had with herself:

All perfectly normal.

 

[ScottTriGuy]

a conversation that EG has just had with herself

Wow.

Just wow.

 

[DanME]

I really am ready to let this whole EG thing go, but for those who are interested in how we are being portrayed on Twitter, here's a conversation that EG has just had with herself:

View attachment 14030

For the record I don't have a Twitter account, EB's account is unprotected again so anyone can read it. The other tweets seem to have been deleted. Posting something then deleting / changing it once everyone has read the original is something she also did a few times here.

I simply don't get this. Nobody attacked her personally, nobody did say, that psychology is a dangerous ideology. Or have I missed something?

We just pointed out, that therapists can find themselves in position of critical authority and psychotherapy can have serious side effects. We also had very reasonable arguments for such view points. She didn't even respond to my reasonable critism or my praise for CBT used in depression.

Full disclosure: Before I went to med school, I studied psychology. I would never ever say, that psychology is a dangerous ideology. But psychology is not excluded from critical thinking and justified sceptism. To the contrary, if psychologist want to be taken seriously, they must engage in critical discussions. And a lot of them do! I have some friends for ARE therapists and they are all fully aware of the possibility of side effects and limitations. They use their art carefully.

 

[adreno]

nobody did say, that psychology is a dangerous ideology

There was a poster who said this. But so what; just because one person has an extreme opinion, it doesn't mean it's shared by the entire forum.

 

[eafw]

that therapists can find themselves in position of critical authority and psychotherapy can have serious side effects.

Yes, any decent therapist will understand that there is a power imbalance in any sort of patient-practitioner relationship. This is not in and of itself a bad thing, but an ethical practitioner will be mindful of that and not exploit it, and patients should understand it too, that it is part of the working contract between them and actually affords a protection for both parties in the relationship.

It (the power imbalance) does not mean that one person gets to dictate to the other, or that one person's contributions are to be devalued. The key things are awareness, respect and ethical behaviour.

Unfortunately many in positions of power/authority do exploit it, often while paying lip-service to patient empowerment or some such, while still dismissing the patient's experience and knowledge.

It is not just psychs it can be GPs, other medics, physios, and also similar principle for people like teachers, social workers etc. People working in these fields know there is an authority that comes with it that can be used to do quite a lot of harm.

 

[Large Donner]

I really am ready to let this whole EG thing go, but for those who are interested in how we are being portrayed on Twitter, here's a conversation that EG has just had with herself:

Ah ha!!!! I told you all this happens when a psych doesn't have an NHS contract......

Its useful paid time for CBT "experts" courtesy of tax payers money, without NHS contracts like this they would be sitting in a room with two chairs talking to themselves because no one would pay for this shit.

.

 

[alex3619]

Maybe we should discuss CBT and brainwashing. Both have the same goal, that is changing what someone thinks about something. In brainwashing its someone else forcing you to change. In CBT its someone else influencing you to change yourself.

CBT and brainwashing do fall under different agendas though. Brainwashing is about someone forcing you to their agenda. CBT is about you bringing an agenda and accepting their conclusions as to the problem. Oh, wait, what about forced CBT in sectioned patients?

My current position is that there is overlap between brainwashing and CBT. CBT can be brainwashing, but does not have to be, though the methods are similar. CBT is less extreme, but frequently has more commitment from the patient as, most of the time but not all the time, they have come to a therapist for help.

Where CBT is moving in the UK, as a mandatory doctrine under certain conditions, is medical abuse. Brainwashing tends to be political. Oh, wait, the drive for it in the UK is political.

To be fair, CBT is also overlapping with propaganda.

 

[alex3619]

Where the therapist has correctly identified issues, and the patient has asked for help, and the goal is increasing the cognitive capacity to cope, I have no issues with CBT.

When the therapist is using whacky hypotheses to derive the selection of issues, or the patient is coerced in any fashion to play along, or the desired outcome is cure, then I most definitely have issues with CBT.

Guess which direction CBT for CFS and ME are trending?