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Psychiatrists -- People with authority and PACE.

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
@TiredSam, thanks for keeping us posted. Just wanted to add this: Dr. Ellen Goudsmit's tweets are closed except to followers (she has 47 followers).

Here's another, tweeted 19 hours ago: "Cyberbully has returned to diminish me (on Phoenix rising). Frustrated by psychiatrists, I'm the Prof. Wessely manqué. Bash bash."
It was sheer coincidence, Ellen Goudsmit seemed to expect everyone to know who she was, and as I'd never heard of her I thought I'd better find out so googled her. Top result was "Ellen Goudsmit's tweets" or something, which I clicked on and read. Her twitter account was closed except to followers within minutes of me copying and posting her tweets here, so now only the faithful are allowed to read.

She's also just sent me a longish private message full of accusations and other stuff, which I won't copy here to respect her privacy, although I will say that she set it to "not open to further replies" so I can't respond to it, which is rather ironic seeing as she gave it the title "Freedom of Speech". Having the last word and refusing to discuss further seems to be a bit of a thing with her.
 

worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
Having the last word and refusing to discuss further seems to be a bit of a thing with her.
Pretty standard. I saw her tweet a few weeks ago that patients were responsible for PACE not being refuted properly and asking where were all the patient scientists who should have done this. When a few people naturally protested she started playing the victim and blocked everyone. I'd show you the tweet but...
 

ScottTriGuy

Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.
Messages
1,402
Location
Toronto, Canada
Wow.

Not the way I expected this thread to go.

In retrospect, I used to have almost blind faith in researchers and doctors: they found and prescribed the HIV meds that keep me, and millions of others, alive - I then worked with an international medical humanitarian ngo that strengthened the medical system in Malawi - yes, I saw gaps in health care, but not in the ethics of the researchers or docs that I worked with.

Then I got ME. We all know how that story goes.

Now I work in peer mental health and nary a week goes bye that I don't hear another story of a health professional causing harm to a patient - and its self-evident they are in positions of authority, I mean really EG, you got some denial goin' on if you think otherwise.

I keep saying I'm going to set up a web site called "StupidShitDoctorsSayandDo.com" coz it will write itself.
 

EllenGB

Senior Member
Messages
119
Pretty standard. I saw her tweet a few weeks ago that patients were responsible for PACE not being refuted properly and asking where were all the patient scientists who should have done this. When a few people naturally protested she started playing the victim and blocked everyone. I'd show you the tweet but...

For everyone else, I never blamed patients for the failure to demolish PACE. I did think that groups had not done enough and I still think that. I am baffled as to why a few are deliberately misinterpreting what I've written. Unless you've read the original, just be cautious about accepting other people's reports of what I've allegedly written. It might not be true, or it might have been taken out of context. Or I might have a valid reason for writing something. I am not Peter White or from the BPS school. I am a long time critic of the PACE trial and the CBT model. I may also have (had) ME. (Without an objective test, it's hard to tell. I have abnormalities on MRI but we don't know if they're due to ME - lack of research on MRI). so again, best wishes to everyone but if I can't write what I want without it being distorted, there's no point writing.
 

EllenGB

Senior Member
Messages
119
Wow.

Not the way I expected this thread to go.

Now I work in peer mental health and nary a week goes bye that I don't hear another story of a health professional causing harm to a patient - and its self-evident they are in positions of authority, I mean really EG, you got some denial goin' on if you think otherwise.

I don't think otherwise.
 

ScottTriGuy

Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.
Messages
1,402
Location
Toronto, Canada
Therapists as people in authority? Not unless you've been sectioned. It's an equal relationship where one person with experience helps another who might lack that. You explore together, agree on things.

How does that not put the therapist in a position of authority?

A therapist may (wish to) characterize the relationship as 'equal' and strive to promote the client's autonomy and with the best of intentions, but that does not reflect the reality of the power dynamics inherent in all social interactions.
 

worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
For everyone else, I never blamed patients for the failure to demolish PACE. I did think that groups had not done enough and I still think that. I am baffled as to why a few are deliberately misinterpreting what I've written. Unless you've read the original, just be cautious about accepting other people's reports of what I've allegedly written. It might not be true, or it might have been taken out of context. Or I might have a valid reason for writing something. I am not Peter White or from the BPS school. I am a long time critic of the PACE trial and the CBT model. I may also have (had) ME. (Without an objective test, it's hard to tell. I have abnormalities on MRI but we don't know if they're due to ME - lack of research on MRI). so again, best wishes to everyone but if I can't write what I want without it being distorted, there's no point writing.
I did see the tweet in question. In fact I looked long and hard at it and returned to it a few times because I found it utterly baffling, as indeed did several others. If you were blaming patient groups, you could have made it clearer. By saying 'patient groups' rather than 'patients' and by mentioning some patient groups. Unfortunately I couldn't go and check the source. But you know that.
 
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Chrisb

Senior Member
Messages
1,051
I, for one, think it a great shame if Ellen chooses to withdraw from this forum, although such a decision would be understandable. She surely has knowledge and experience which would be useful, and is clearly on our side of the debate, even if there is disagreement over detail.

I was reading the thread as it went along and the feeling of discomfort became increasingly evident. I make no criticism of any contributors. The difficulty seems to arise from the nature of the forum where several people have the feeling of conducting a personal question and answer session with one person. The pressure on that person may become overburdensome.

It would be helpful if a way could be found of persuading Ellen to remain active here.
 

Old Bones

Senior Member
Messages
808
I am baffled as to why a few are deliberately misinterpreting what I've written
. . . . but if I can't write what I want without it being distorted, there's no point writing.

Hi Ellen,

If you are still "here", this is only one opinion of what may have happened on this thread. Perhaps a few are "deliberately" misinterpreting what you've written, or perhaps not, with the misinterpretation merely the result of a communication method that doesn't always accurately convey the intent of a message. With text only, tone of voice, body language and facial expression are missing; not to mention, the inability to immediately notice and clarify misunderstandings. I do my very best to ensure any emails I send, or texts I post, are as clear as possible. Despite this, I am surprised by how many times I realize, or at least suspect, that my message wasn't received the way I intended it to come across. This rarely happens "face to face", and if it does, it can usually be straightened out quickly before hard feelings develop. I don't know if this will help you to feel better, but I hope it does. Of course, based on what I've written above, I may have just "put my foot in my mouth" and made things worse. If so, that was not my intent. Cheers!
 

DanME

Senior Member
Messages
289
It depends what type of CBT. The Chalder protocol is potentially harmful in that it aims to increase activity. For most other disorders, CBT is focused on resolving specific issues that en has e.g. depression. It is therapeutic. It can help or it has no effect.

Sorry, but this is a view, I (and other therapists) cannot share. Psychotherapy is never completely harmless. Like every medical intervention it can have serious adverse effects. CBT is not excluded. Especially because the therapist has a greater knowledge base, the patient is often in a vulnerable and desperate state, the therapists has to identify cognitive distortions and maladaptive behaviour correctly, and the goal of CBT is to retrain and recondition certain thought processes and behaviours, it can have negative consequences due to mistakes by the therapist, misunderstandings by the patient, changes of social behaviour, provocative qestions, excessive demands, outright manipulation or (sometimes yet unkown) other factors. This is an issue with has been overlooked for a long time, but research is getting there. Don't get me wrong, CBT can be a great and very successful form of treatment and def has great value for a lot of patients, but it's is not entirely harmless.

Some quotes from a review, called: "The elephant on the coach: side effects of psychotherapy."

"[...] there is a dissonance in the way in which physical therapies and psychotherapies are considered in terms of their cost–benefit ratio. Any potent intervention has both the capacity to cure and to harm. For drug-based therapeutic trials, adverse event monitoring is mandatory. By contrast, evaluation of psychotherapy has historically weighted the ‘benefit’ side of the equation."

"If psychotherapy is provided as the only or principal therapy for a condition for which it is either inappropriate or ineffective, the patient may be exposed to a lengthy period of ongoing symptoms and disability – an adverse outcome."

"Psychiatric patients are commonly highly troubled and vulnerable, whether personality based, and/or a consequence of their illness. An insensitive, critical or sexually exploitative therapist may increase a poor outcome risk."

"It has been suggested that therapists who induce high emotional arousal may inadvertently cause an increase in alcohol consumption, especially in those with comorbid mood disorders [14]. Interventions that risk increasing a person's feeling of being stigmatized or in which they are blamed for not meeting intervention targets, have been held to increase helplessness and self-blame, and so undermine self-efficacy [15]."

"Szapocznik and Prado detailed how interventions may have adverse effects on families and friends [16], particularly if the individual undergoing therapy becomes more self-absorbed or self-centred [1719]."

"The longer any patient attends a psychotherapist – irrespective of how therapeutic the therapy – the patient risks contracting their independent capacity to make decisions (self-mastery), whether by deferring in sessions to their therapist or by filtering decisions outside therapy through the therapist's decision-making model."

"Some patients confronted with such expectations [of critical reasoning]– and unable to meet them (particularly as a consequence of severe depression) – may have their sense of self-worth further undermined. Further, CBT shifts responsibility onto the individual for active engagement and conduct of the techniques. A recipient may feel guilty if treatment does not result in the expected improvements, without realizing that there are many other factors that may affect response."

"Some experienced cognitive therapists suggest that CBT can be toxic to some individuals, particularly those with obsessive personalities, by increasing worry and introspection, fuelling rather than relieving anxiety and depression. Vulnerability to such adverse events may be a consequence of stage of illness [41, 42]. In bipolar disorder, CBT benefited those individuals in the early stages of illness, while those people who had more than 12 prior episodes of illness actually deteriorated with CBT [43]."

http://anp.sagepub.com/content/43/9/787.full
 

Chrisb

Senior Member
Messages
1,051
Sorry, but this is a view, I (and other therapists) cannot share.

The nature of the views do not really matter if the person with whom a therapist is seeking to engage has just disappeared out of the door probably with the intention of never returning.
 

Sea

Senior Member
Messages
1,286
Location
NSW Australia
Almost every discussion I've seen with EB on this forum and others over the years ends this way. Short of a PM to every person who is trying to engage I don't know how this can be prevented.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Show me the evidence that that's any more true of psychologists or psychiatrists than it is of people generally. It's hardly fair to extrapolate the behaviour of one person and claim that it represents a whole group.

Thank you @Scarecrow for saying that and as a former therapist/social worker (until this illness ended my career) I can promise you that Ellen's behavior here does not represent the group as a whole. I don't have the energy to join the discussion right now but was happy to see your comment and wanted to thank you.
 
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jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
Haven't you even met a doctor playing his or her role as gatekeepers deciding wheather or not they think you a malingerer or one of the truly deserving. Haven't you noticed how highly they rate compliant patients, their biases against doctor shopping. I know that some of my decisions re therapy have being made out of a desire to stay on the good side of doctors who control my income.

This is exactly my experience, over and over. It took very little study on my part to know more about my illness than all the doctors put together. And there have been more of them than I care to recall. So the relationship immediately becomes a power struggle and a competition. How can I convince them to do basic testing and treatment? Will they fill out the disability form so I can have an income, or will they decide that I deserve to be homeless.

I would certainly be homeless and dead if a previous primary care provider had decided not to cooperate and fill out the form. If my case comes up for review any time soon I am sunk, because my current primary care provider has told me that my illness is "primarily psychological".

These people have been given the power of life and death with the stroke of a pen. That seems like the ultimate authority to me.